John Gartin | Jul 19, 2024

Ari Block (00:00) John, welcome to the show. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. I want to start from your coach history. John Gartin (00:02) Thank Ari Block (00:12) You got into it absolutely by accident, but then, and please don't be humble. I know that's a problem you have, a good problem you have, but don't be humble. us all the things. Give us the coaching history and where you got to and the great athletes that you had the opportunity to John Gartin (00:21) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it was, I mean, one, was a real privilege to be able to coach. You know, you get to work with student athletes and really help them develop. It started off at when I was in undergrad at Old Dominion University. You know, I was on the rowing club. Kind of felt like I became president of the club by default. But the kids, the high school kids one of those summers needed some help. They already had a coach, a Navy captain who was doing a lot of work, but also he was having some external challenges and so they needed help. you know, me, it's probably more function of me standing there, know, warm body you, you're it. But, you know, we got to start there. And then, you know, coaching a little bit at Oldham University, graduated. our coach from the year previous when I was there, moved on. and so I was coaching the guys. and, now another coach came in a year later, Bill Zach. and he, think he was pretty instrumental in me figuring out, what it was to be a professional coach. you know, he was very supportive of the idea of, being a student of coaching. in fact, I remember one time I was reading a book in the van. And one of the athletes, it was at the end of the season, one of the athletes asked me, you know, and then paraphrasing, but they were just like, why are you doing this? You know, the season's over and, and, and Bill turns around and goes, well, John's trying to be a better person. What are you doing? and I was like, I'm just going to read my book. but, then it went to South Carolina. Got my master's degree. there is rowing in South Carolina, by the way, for those folks, but, I didn't do anything there while I was getting my master's, but I went to San Diego state. to get my PhD in geography. And probably one week into being on campus, was of course, know, t -shirts and rowing are a requisite. yeah, just kind of wandering around campus. I think it was just exploring, but you know, everybody wears a rowing t -shirt. In fact, in rowing, there's an old tradition that if you win the event, you get the other team's shirts, jerseys, their unis, their kit. Ari Block (02:35) PhD. Just standing there. Just standing there. Yeah. Just standing there. Right. John Gartin (03:02) and, in fact, if you watch the Harvard Yale race, the men still do that. They, at the end of the race, they exchange, you know, whomever the winner is gets the other teams, tank top or Jersey or, and so, no, it's a trophy. now once you get away, I mean, once you get away from the race, you know, sometimes you'll go to practice. And in fact, at one point when I was coaching with the athletic director, kind of mentioned that he saw some of our athletes weren't wearing. Ari Block (03:16) Did they put him on? John Gartin (03:32) other other other teams t -shirts and I'm like well you know they they won those and Ari Block (03:39) Right, right. You know what, I love that. It's almost like the handshake at the end of tennis, right? I mean, sure, it's a trophy and there's an ego aspect to it, but it's also like, you know, we're civil and, you know, I'm also showcasing them, but yeah, we also won this. John Gartin (03:49) Yep. Yeah, totally. So that's what got me back into coaching in San Diego and in Mission Bay. It's fantastic. There's tons of rowing, tons of great organizations, and really had, I think a fantastic five year run, you know, practically coaching in some way, or form, you know, multiple, multiple organizations or riding around and launches. Uh, with other coaches, I mean, it really was a unique environment to be able to like experiment, learn, um, and, be able to grow there. And that's where it kind of took off for me, uh, especially coaching the master women, uh, in San Diego. Uh, they, had a really great core nucleus of women that were, uh, really ranging from like, I think about 20 to. North of 60 in terms of age ranges. Ari Block (04:44) wow. In the same team. In the same team? wow. John Gartin (04:45) and highly successful. Pardon? yeah, yeah, Master Women, yeah, Masters is pretty much, know, it's, most of them are post college, but there were a couple of women that were in community college and they didn't have an opportunity or they were at another, you an opportunity, they hadn't gotten to uni yet. And so they were just starting to row. And, but most of them Probably in the age range, I'm going to put it in 28 to 38. And yeah, it was fascinating. I learned a ton. I had the privilege of coaching them. were ultimately, think the year that I got the head coaching job at Nova Southeastern a couple months after I left, they went with the entire rowing club, the Masters Nationals and the rowing through a totality of points came home with the national championship. And the women were a significant contributor to that. And I was really, really proud of them. I wasn't coaching them at the point, but it's just a couple of months on. And so I don't know how to take credit for it. And I have a hard time taking credit, but at the same time, my pride was really top shelf. Ari Block (06:01) Well, that just means you're a good manager. John Gartin (06:06) And then I ended up at Nova Southeastern University. Not ended up, I got the job there and started the program. They didn't have a rowing show. They didn't have an athlete. didn't have, you know, we knew where we were going to row and that was it. And we built the program up and across the course of the eight years that we were there. I was really fortunate to work with a tremendous number of amazing women. And they went to the national championship seven out of eight years while we were there the women's four won the national championship in 09 and the We won several conference championships That it is it was a really special time with a bunch of really special people and Ari Block (06:38) wow. John Gartin (07:01) You know, the, the, the, probably the one of the defining moments of their, of that first year that we started the program, was, we went to Rollins college up in winter park, Florida. and you know, and, okay. Yeah. No great college. And by the way, winter parks, beautiful. and yeah, we're, Lake Maitland, if I remember correctly. and, we were. Ari Block (07:12) Yeah, yep, yep. I taught at Rollins College actually one of them. Yeah, one of them. Yes, yes, yes. John Gartin (07:29) out, we were racing, but it was our first year. so in rowing, first year rowers are considered novices. and, and if everybody in the boat is a first year rower, they don't have to be a freshmen, just a first year rower. they're a novice. Well, and a couple of weeks before we went, the university of Miami coach at the time, had spoken to me. She pulled me aside. She was a friend of mine, is a friend of mine. and a, she said to me, you know, you really should race up, you know, you should race against the other varsity crews in the, in the state, because your boat's faster than I think you think it is. And I was like, you know, I mean, I had mad respect for this coach. So, you know, I was going to take that advice and run with it. And I was like, okay, went back to the women and I was like, Hey, we're going to try something in our next regatta. When we go to Rollins, we're going to race because we can qualify for the novices. Cause we're all novice rowers, first year program, first year. university everything we're gonna race the knobbies but we're also gonna try our hand at the varsity entry as well and so we doubled up so in the novice race they I mean it's solid it was great great win the varsity race you know and it's and by the way for the listeners and the viewers like rowing is the race course is 2 ,000 meters Typically, you'll see this gathering of coaches at the finish line. And we have no idea what's happening in the first two thirds of the race. Because we can't even be like, just like, well, it looks like boats have started. There's some splashing. Who knows? But here they. Ari Block (09:04) Right. And for our American listeners, 2000 meters is like a 10 minute run, right? If you're not fit. John Gartin (09:12) Yeah. Yeah, I would call it about almost a mile and a half, give or take. Yeah, but but little shy than a mile and a half. But yeah, I have to. It's funny. I always have to switch between worlds of metric and English measurements. But yeah, it's it's a hike. It takes usually an average women's crew. A really top level women's crew will do it in six minutes and 15, six minutes and 20. Ari Block (09:29) It is. John Gartin (09:38) Uh, at the NCAAs I've seen six minutes and 11 seconds. Uh, you know, but that's. That, that, that's your best collegiate university crew. Um, but we're, we're all standing at the finish line watching this race come down and, know, here, here it comes. And, um, I'm watching it. I'm like, Oh, you know, it looks like we're in it. You know, I think we're doing okay. You know, and, and, uh, and that that's the first half of the race. I'm just like, ah, you know, who knows? Uh, it, you know, it's like watching a marathon and just see But the, the, suddenly, it starts to come into view that I'm like, my gosh, we're like in it, like in it, in it. And it was four boats across. And if I remember right, it was Jacksonville university, Barry university, Rollins college and us, and just four across just, mean, just everybody's going for the finish line and you're just watching this crew and I'm watching them and I'm just like, my gosh, like we're, Yeah, I was just pleasantly well, no, I was ecstatic that we were competitive. Like I was excited that we were in it and we were, you know, we're rowing and I'm like, my gosh. I mean, it was just bow ball to bow ball. You saw all four boats just coming towards the finish line and literally they hit the finish line. There's a horn at the finish line. All you hear is beep beep beep beep. And I'm like, you know, I was like, I don't know what happened. I don't know. You know, at that particular moment in time, I was Ari Block (11:00) What just happened? John Gartin (11:04) All I know is we did a outstanding job. So, they, you know, they, they order, you know, they were rank order the metals at the end of the regatta. The women go up and get their novice metals, which is great. and then, they get down and the varsity of course is the last race they announced in terms of the winners and everybody's down there at the front of the boathouse. And then they go through the winners. Okay. Third place, you know, second place. first place, Nova Southeastern University. So the women go with their novice medals on and go get their varsity medals. it was Disney. It was a Disney movie Ari Block (11:43) I can feel the goosebumps. That is... John Gartin (11:48) And I looked around and everybody was like, wait, what? Like literally, you just saw this kind of like the novice won the art, you know, and I was like, we just set a standard that we're going to have to really live up to. Ari Block (11:53) What just happened? You can't invent this. This is just crazy. So, okay, let me, my God, you could only hope to experience moments like that. You learned a lot becoming a coach. What were your breaking points where you're like, that's super interesting. Like, this is something I need to do. This is something I didn't know. This is something I've now learned and was fundamentally new for you and made you change the John Gartin (12:08) It was a great year. Ari Block (12:34) that you behaved with yourself, with others. What did you learn through that coaching career? John Gartin (12:39) Two things immediately come to mind. One, and I want to say this one before I forget it, it actually originated from one of the women that was in that first boat. So, Falouka, she became all everything in the 40s. She was a swimmer in high school. Came to Nova Southeastern University from New York. Was not recruited. She walked onto the team. I remember distinctly when she walked up to me at orientation said coach, I'm going to come row. It's it. And it wasn't, if I recall correctly, it wasn't, I want to come row. It was going to come row. And I was like, okay. Ari Block (13:17) I'm coming. I'm coming. You know what? I just love it when people have a sense of confidence, but not arrogant. And that's, it's that, right? I'm coming to Ro. John Gartin (13:25) No, Yeah. Now, a ton of the women that we have, they really understood that it was a team sport and it was all nine women in the boat or all five women in the four. Ironically, you call it a four, but there's the coxswain coxswain's need more respect. They're the drivers of the boat. They're the person who's and by the way, they don't shout row, row, row. OK, for anybody who's tired but, Cheyenne Posky, who's was our cox in that first or the first four years of the program, she will happily, correct you, and in no uncertain terms, by the way. but, so Nikki, one day after she graduated, we were sitting there talking and she had become somebody involved in rowing, had done coaching, definitely still absolutely part of her life. she's an immense alumni. but, she, We're talking about novices and for some reason I had expressed some level of frustration and she turned to me and goes, coach, they don't know what they don't And I literally was like stunned silence. And I'm just like, like, well, you know, and I had to go back and realize it and kind of rewind the tape. Because when I was in San Diego, I worked with a lot of I taught a lot of rowing classes, which actually was a huge amount of help for me when I started coaching at the university level, you know, coaching uni students, because, you know, I think I developed. a methodology and I won't even call it methodology. I developed an approach to coaching that involved understanding how to teach a real wide diverse audience because you know when you're teaching rowing classes you had and much to like the master women that would catch the San Diego you have anybody from 18 to and rowing is a great sport for all life. So I had I had athletes that were 60. I even had a couple of athletes that were 70 years old. And, and, you know, also all of these crazy backgrounds, you know, I had women that were former basketball players, women that had never rode before women who were, or men and women that were, uh, you know, in the band, but had never done a, you know, in their mind, a sport. Um, and, um, it was great trying to figure out how to communicate with them, you know, what's going to You know also just everybody's got a different communication style and so, you know when Nikki said that I had to kind of check myself and go Okay I need to reset when I'm talking to novices and when I'm talking to people who don't know and also people who don't know what they don't know and And to go okay, you have to find that lowest common denominator for a team You have to find that lowest common denominator for the individual You have to be able to relate to them. You have to start to peel away the layers of the onion to in terms of that educational process. know, and this applies to the classroom. This applies to coaching. This applies to life, you know, and, know, like here at Northern Arizona University, like we have a huge population of first gen students. You know, these first gen students may not know something that we take for Ari Block (16:50) Right. That's right. John Gartin (16:50) that we assume everyone knows and we can't make that assumption with anybody. And so when Nikki said that, just was like, that was a huge check on my part. And then another element, you know, it's like, okay, they don't know what they don't know. But another element of my own personal self -despair. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. We forget what it means to be a rookie. We forget what it is like on that first Ari Block (17:06) And by the way, this is what they call expert bias, right? John Gartin (17:18) In anything, the first day on the job, first day in the classroom, first day at, you know, camp, first day, whatever. We, the experts have to be way more empathetic and we have to like, we can't even assume they're going to meet us halfway. We have to go 100 % over to the other side and go, OK. Tell me if you don't, if you already know this, but I'm going to take it all the way down to zero and start here and assume they don't know anything. And. Now the other piece of that process was me in the self discovery of learning how to teach and you know, and I would just say learning how to teach not learning how to coach but learning how to communicate information so that the individual one understands to is able to start applying and three you give them a process that allows them to get the small wins, move forward successfully, has the space to fail and understands that failure is just a data point. You know, it's not, you know, you don't want to set expectations too high, but you do want to challenge them. You do, you know, but all of this was occurring to me, you know, throughout my coaching career and even Ari Block (18:37) Let me just stop you there. This is true. This is true for coaching. This is true for parenting. This is true in the corporate environment of, quote unquote, managing leading. I mean, this is a fundamental truth of how to help people get from point A to point B. just want to, you know, you're saying these things, but they're so incredibly important and interesting. I just want to let the audience absorb this for a second and understand how applicable everything you're saying John Gartin (18:42) Mm -hmm. Yes. Ari Block (19:06) And let me just repeat it, right? You said small wins, right? That reinforces confidence. It reinforces this idea that you can make small steps. But then you said it's okay to fail. And that failure, you're teaching them that it's just a lesson on their way to their next success or their next failure, which is yet another lesson, which is okay. And then you're saying something also incredibly important, which I feel like sometimes in America we forget, you need to also be challenged, right? Like these participation trophies. John Gartin (19:09) Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Ari Block (19:34) No, it's okay to say that you failed and this is the lesson to learn. And then, you know, this is the, this was a challenging thing that you, you achieved something. And even if you didn't get the perfect score, you, you achieved the law. It's, it's such, such an, such an important message. So I, I'll tell you a short story. one of my, one of my, partners, he, he bombed a sales meeting and, and he, you know, he was obviously upset and. John Gartin (19:46) absolutely. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Ari Block (20:01) And I called him up maybe a couple hours later and I said, that was amazing. That was a great job. And he was in shock. like, no, we completely bombed it and the guy's not interested and blah, blah, blah. And I said, yes, but look at what you learned. And you've taken this first step and look at all the insights you have and look at what path this has set you and you know, I kind of changed the way he looked at it and he came out from that discussion with this hugely positive perspective. And now he's on this new journey. And I said, look, you're not a sales guy. This was your first sales meeting. You bombed it, but now you have all this learnings and insights and it's such a wonderful thing. And so I just wanted to share my appreciation of you kind of sharing these, these incredible points. So you talked about communication style common denominator, but it also matters the kind of background of the person, where they come from. What are the different communication styles that you have used as a coach, as a mentor, as a professor in order to really connect and empathize? John Gartin (21:07) Yeah. I think I approach it with almost a mix of media and see what... I hate to say it like, let's throw it at the wall and see what sticks. But on day one, it's me, it's audio, it's text, it's imagery, it's creating analogies. And so I can be the sage on the stage, but I can tell you right now, that actually is probably the least effective Ari Block (21:19) You're fishing a little bit, John Gartin (21:39) you know, in terms of getting them to engage. One of the things is getting them to talk to each other and for them to, you know, I love it when a student can teach a student and because that student who's teaching it now is reinforcing it for themselves and they're having to process and how to do that. So I can, you know, do an initial conversation, have them have a second conversation. I can also with the, you know, in the department of small wins, you know, it's like, okay, we're going to do Ari Block (21:52) is learning. Yes. John Gartin (22:09) At the end of this particular class or this particular week, we're going to do a five really low stakes, five question quiz. Or I will ask the athletes. So what did you learn today? How do you feel about what you got today? You know, and feel like that feel question. Like it really gets them to dig in and go, okay, how do I feel? and you know, and again, this has been, you know, kind of a journey and a process. So like when I first started coaching, I was horrible. I was bad. Ari Block (22:32) Wait, hold on, hold on. Why? Hold on. The why, why, how do you feel? I mean, you're glossing over something incredibly important. Why is that important exercise for the athletes? John Gartin (22:40) Yeah. Mm -hmm. I think it really gets them to analyze and to think about, what is my body and my mind saying to me? You know, because we can go do a workout. And I think that's why a lot of people like don't make progress is they don't do the analysis, you know, or they're just assuming that if I run, you know, a mile on the treadmill, whatever, you know, where versus it's like, okay, how'd you do yesterday? How do you did you do today? How did yesterday feel? How did today feel? Did you make any sort of mechanical improvement between that? Did you make any sort of mental strength improvement between that? And for them, you when you talk about feelings, you know, they're like, yeah, you know, when I was like really sitting on that and really feeling like I was pushing against the ore, I felt this. And now they know what it's supposed to feel like tomorrow. And this, you know, and the same thing as in the classroom or, you know, just working with students or with kids or with families or with corporations is what was yesterday? How did you do? How'd you feel? You know, what what did we accomplish? What what went wrong? Let's talk about it. How do we do today? Ari Block (24:06) This sounds crazy. You're almost advocating that even in the employment environment you can... Okay, so this John Gartin (24:10) I think, well, we're human, you know, and emotions. Ari Block (24:15) Okay, but hold on. Any boss would be like, let's not talk about emotions, right? Let's like, this is John Gartin (24:20) Hey, I think people are losing percentages of potential and percentages gains, when we don't take a moment to recognize that how do we feel about that? You know, because the thing is, it also allows us like if we felt good about let's celebrate. If we felt uncomfortable about it, what was uncomfortable? If we had created an uncomfortable environment? Well, you know, hey, coach, leader, know, captain of the ship, whatever. That's a you problem. That's not the sailors problem. That's not the employees problem. That if we're creating a negative environment that makes them feel like they can't, then that's a leader. Ari Block (25:05) So in the business environment, it's difficult. I think a lot of people fail on this because employees, team, they don't want to show that they have an issue or that they're weak or that they're unhappy because you're almost taught to exude the strength and you don't want to, then the boss is going to come and say, what's your problem? Why aren't you performing? Like you're almost pulling attention to yourself. So everybody's happy, happy, happy all the time. Is there a trick to it? Is there a way to build? And I'm guessing here that there's a cultural thing you can do to make this work. What's the approach? How do you make this difficult thing feasible? John Gartin (25:42) I think the first thing is getting to know them. We love talking about ourselves. here, I tell you right now, me and you, could be at 10 o 'clock, I'm in the West Coast time, so we could be at 11 o 'clock today and I'd still be happy to talk about myself. But I think it's key that we actively listen to our teammates. Ari Block (26:00) Everybody. John Gartin (26:09) to our employees, to our families. And active listening is putting the pen down, turning away from the keyboard, facing the individual and having, and it doesn't, I'm not talking about hours on conversations. I'm talking about the two minutes of either you're coaching the individual, you're helping to support the individual, you're learning about the individual. And so when, to start that trust, they have to believe we as leaders care. And not the the not the fake care, you know, like, hey, great to see you today. OK, that's fake care in my mind. If you're honestly great to see them, great. Tell them it's great to see them, but keep going. You know, how are you doing today? Today, right now, how are you doing right now? How's your cat? Hey, how was that Hawaiian pizza you had last night? How you know, you told me on Friday you were going on a hike. How to go? Like, where'd you go? Oh, it got rained out. Oh, that stinks. But what else did you do? You know, but what's that? 30 seconds, one minute. Like, you know, like, like one of my teammates that, you know, that's on my team here at the university at Northern Arizona. Like I uncovered the fact that literally we love the same wine brand, the same winery. Because we had a conversation like. And I can tell you this, this is not a popular winery. The Masako wines out in Sonoma, California, like the fact that they even knew the name blew my mind. And they're like, I love that winery. I'm like, my wife, literally we just opened a bottle. my gosh. You know, like, but that's that human connection, you know, and, and now we can build on that and, and they can, and, and also like, it doesn't hurt for me to share where I mess Ari Block (27:45) Right, right. it John Gartin (28:06) You know, because we're human, I'm going to fail. And if they know that I have a relationship with them, if they know that it's okay to try something, you know, and being a calculated risk. Okay. But we, we, we let that happen. We want them to try to push the envelope a little bit and we want them to explore, to innovate, to try something different because. Ari Block (28:06) That's such an important point. Hold on, I have to stop you on that. It's such an important point because I think a lot of people in lot of environments, they try to showcase themselves as perfect. And that does the opposite of what you want it to do because people are like, you're not perfect. So actually that's creating a negative perception. But if you just share honestly and humbly like I fucked up, you know, I learned from this. Here's what I learned. John Gartin (28:37) Yeah, Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Ari Block (28:57) You know, you're a real person now. John Gartin (29:01) since we were talking about rowing, here's a now in hindsight, funny, but really happened. I got the regatta dates wrong. We went we literally scheduled a race with the university on the wrong weekend when they were expecting us on it on a like one of the other book in weekends. I don't remember which we get about two weeks out. I've made hotel reservations. I've reserved the bus. It's you know, everything is done. Ari Block (29:11) Mm -mm. John Gartin (29:30) And something just tickled in the back of my head and I called them up and I said, hey, we're coming on X and they're like. We're racing on why. And I was like. And so I had to go back to my team and go, hey. I really messed But I told them, you know, I literally owned it like I was the one that, know, I'm the head coach. That's a me problem, even though maybe my assistant coach at the time might have had a whole bunch of involvement in helping me make that arrangement. Neat. None of us realized how. Apparently we need to look at calendars better. But the thing is, like, you know, I told him, I was like, guys, I messed up. Now, did we, did we get it to work? Did we fix a couple of things? Sure. But it wasn't what it was supposed to be. And we weren't necessarily racing the way it was supposed to be, you know, who and what and when, but you know, I, know, what am I going to do other than tell them, Hey, I messed up at the same time. It opens the door for the athletes to go, it's okay. to come to me and say I messed up. You know, now, you know, there are still standards. Okay. And then so, you know, we have to hold everybody to a standard, but you know, if someone messes up and I've learned this and then there was another case where I think I messed up big time in the in learning this process is we have to give them a little bit of grace and we have to go, you know what they tried something where they did something. and they messed up, but I need to understand that, okay, there's a consequence, but it, but can we learn from that? And, know, and I could probably review a couple of times where I, as a leader, messed up doing that. and, know, and I think now if I was to approach the same situation, I would handle it. Well, I would say very, very differently, you know, knowing that it's like, Hey, we have to know And again, it's also going back to that. Hey, you know, you were a coordinator at some point. You were an assistant director at some point. You were a brand new employee at some point. You were a brand new team member at some point. Anytime we encounter this, where you might be like literally holding your head in your hand, like, I can't believe they did Ari Block (31:54) Yeah, that's right. So how do we... So, I mean, if I'm the leader, right, I can put that culture forth. But as an employee, if I have the culture of admitting my fault that others don't, is that dangerous? Does that put me in a disadvantage because now I'm the guy that looks like I'm fucking up all the time? And then, excuse my language, and then this other person is always blaming other people. John Gartin (31:56) go way, way, way, way, way back. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Ari Block (32:23) Is that, am I making a bad choice by living out that culture that I believe in of ownership? John Gartin (32:31) Well, I think if we're having multiple negative outcomes, that might be necessitating a self review of, OK, why are we having multiple bad outcomes? However, think that when you know, hopefully you're not messing up every day, but when we do mess up, I think it allows and we say, hey, I did this, I messed this is why, you know, or even maybe adding us some contacts and saying, Hey, this is why I, you know, I tried this and this is why it failed. that allows for our teams are, you know, and, I'm a big team guy. So if you work on my team, you work on my team. If you row on my team, you're on my team teams all over. but, the, I think that if we are going allowed them some grace and gives and hopefully they develop. We need to take those opportunities to go, know what, failure is a data point and I messed this up. But the responsibility is also on us and our other teammates is when we make those mistakes or when things don't go wrong or when we don't win the race or whatever, you know, and winning special, you know, anytime you succeed, it's special. You know, and, we should celebrate that because we're all not going to get a hundred. know, nobody makes a hundred percent of shots and things like that. So we have to assume that there's going to be failure, but if we act like everything's perfect, everybody else is assuming that we're holding them to this particular standard and they're either going to try to get it and they're going to fail and they're going to not tell anybody or they're not even going to try. Which both of them are, I think are. Ari Block (34:07) That's right. John Gartin (34:24) bigger negative outcomes than for them to go, you know what, I tried it and it didn't work, not failure, but it didn't work. But these are the things I learned and next time I'm going to get that extra 10%. And, and so, but we have to do that too as leaders. Okay. It means all of us need to develop. All of us need to try. All of us need to kind of reach and stretch and we need to share when we don't get that, you know? And so I don't think we're putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage. nor is it in a weaker perception to the team. When we say, you know what, I tried this to get the team 10 % better or for me to get 10 % better or for me to make a bigger sale or for me to get the team a little bit faster. Didn't work. But these are the, and this is, think is really key. This is what we learned. And now we've taken this calculated risk. Didn't work out. Great. These are the things we learned. Let's apply it and find maybe that 5 % of the You know, and, and on the water rowing 1 % is roughly four seconds at the finish line. And I told the group of students I was speaking to last night, um, I'll take 1 % every single day of the week, twice on Sunday, like 1 % four seconds. That's almost a length of a rowing, of a 60 foot rowing show at the finish line. And there, there are numerous races. Ari Block (35:27) Bonne heureuse. Absolutely. Absolutely. John Gartin (35:51) Yeah, in fact one flashes back in my mind. It's like literally it's a it's it's it I won't call it post -traumatic stress, but it's definitely a flashback but I would have loved for percent for one percent four seconds at that finish line because we were racing Florida Tech at Dad Vail's which is a huge regatta in Philadelphia Literally we hit the finish line It was BB and me and the Florida Tech coach were standing right there Casey Baker and I were standing right there and both of us looked at each other were We had no idea who won. We literally could not. And my squad was about that much on the wrong side of the result. And, you know, but it was a great race. Like I will never forget that race, but 1 % completely different. Ari Block (36:34) Right. Amazing. I mean, just do the math, right? Take 1 .01 and, you know, to the power of 100, you're almost three times better, right? Like small, my dad used to say, baby steps, baby steps, John Gartin (36:49) Yep, small wins, huge outcomes. Keep investing. Ari Block (36:52) That's right. That's right. So, You see now I have the pause. Tell me about the places where one of the team members just broke down and they hit their rock bottom. And how do you help a person kind of get out of that hole and keep John Gartin (37:27) I'm not going to name them, but they will know exactly who they are when they see this. We were at a regatta and she had come over from another team in our athletic department to start rowing with us. Ari Block (37:30) Please don't. Please John Gartin (37:49) So in rowing, there's what we call catching a crab. And basically what happens at that point is the ore hydrodynamically gets stuck in the water. You're pulling through. mean, the boat's moving. All eight women are moving together. I mean, there is a it is a ballet of motion when it's done well. It is beautiful. But one, you know, any number of things can throw you off. She caught a crab. We were leading the race. We ended up out of the medals. And literally here she comes to the dock. I mean, she is an emotional bomb has absolutely leveled her. Like she is absolutely distraught, gone to pieces. you know, and if I recall correctly, it was our first year rowing. but, you know, she felt she let the school down, the team down, me down, herself down. Like, I mean, literally like they're there. I mean, negativity all the way around, you know, and, and we, at that point, there is the worst thing we can do is to either blame fine fall, you know, and at that point, it's literally for me, it's like, Hey, you know, and I'm sure I didn't say it this But this is what I wanted to communicate to them is I still respect you, still love you, still want you on our team. You are important. And you took 199 great strokes out of And so, you know, it, and, but the thing also is to pull them aside and have, you know, that conversation, allow them to be who they are. You know, if there's crying and rowing great, you know, uh, you know, why? Because we're passionate, you know, we cared. So, and, I've seen it in business world, you know, where something didn't go wrong. Everything else lined up 199 great strokes, one bad stroke and literally, you takes the boat, turns it sideways. We have to be compassionate. We have to be, we again, have to go back and go, OK, put ourselves in their shoes. Be empathetic. And know that when we have these failures, probably it may be a smidge off color, but nobody wants to suck. If someone's doing something and they're showing up 40 hours a week, they don't want to stink at If somebody's showing up and they're rolling in above, they don't want to stink at that. You know, they may not be the best at it, but if we're good coaches, we're good leaders. They're going to try their best to be their best. And they're going to work hard. And I heard this last week, they're going to try to work to be, they're going to try their best to be better. You know, and, and, and what we want to be able to do is to really, but we as leaders, we need to give them space to do that. And a piece of that is when that person hits their lowest. Ari Block (41:19) That's the teachable moment. John Gartin (41:19) we have to reach down and say, and now I won't even say that, we have to climb in the hole with Ari Block (41:24) Hmm, John Gartin (41:26) We have to get down there and go, you know what? Me and you, we're in this trench together. And we're both going to get out of it. know, and I because it's something you see these graphics where somebody is reaching down to help pull somebody up, you know, and that's a piece of it. Yes. But why not climb down there and help them climb up with them? You know that to me, that's a teammate, somebody who's not going to get, you know, And it's a big philosophy of mine is never leave a person behind. And no matter what we're and yeah, it could be out hiking, could be what we're doing in the boat house, what we're doing at work, no one gets left behind. We need to care. And when they're at their lowest, we need to care even more and get down in the trench with