Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Cheryl, welcome to the show today. I'm so excited to talk to you today.
I have to start from your book. I was so taken. It has a big no in it. And then inside the no, it has all these small little nos. And I have to confess that I find it very difficult to say no.
In a certain way, it's been a blessing, because it's allowed me to excel in many ways, but in a certain way, it's been a burden. With your permission, I'd like to ask you what was the hard moment where you understood that you needed to make a change in your life?
[00:00:40] Speaker B: First, thank you for having me.
There were actually two. This was over a six month period.
I started out in October ish of 2021, working full time at an animal rescue, which is like 16, 17 hours a day, and running my own content writing business at the same time, because you don't make a lot of money in animal rescue. And, you know, at the time, I'm taking care of my parents. They're getting older. I'm still volunteering for all the things, and I'm still there for all my friends. And whenever anybody needs anything, I'm the first person to volunteer. And I started kind of going downhill every day. I felt like I was falling further and further behind. I wasn't getting my work done. I felt like I was disappointing people just left and right.
Bills were difficult to cover financially. I was slipping. And I started getting really short with people, which I wouldn't call myself patient, but I'm normally rather pleasant to talk to, and I was very short, and I was crying constantly. And, you know, people that know me laugh when I say this because I cry a lot, admittedly. But during this period of my life, I literally couldn't stop. I woke up crying. I went to bed crying. Every conversation, I was crying. And I started to really resent people in my life, and, you know, people that I love, my parents, my friends, my puppies.
And it was just this kind of. I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know what to do with it. And one day, I kind of hit my rock bottom. And I was driving down the road. I saw the oncoming headlights. It was dusk, so headlamps were starting to come on. And I had this thought, hey, if I just cross over that median, this could all be over in, like, a second.
It scared the crap out of me. Obviously, I didn't want to hurt anybody else, and for sure, I didn't want to leave my parents without me, my dogs without me. So I pulled over to the side of the road and I calmed myself down.
And I kind of vowed in that moment that something had to give, something had to change.
So I cleared all non essentials off my plate. Over the next couple of weeks, I took a sabbatical, if you will, from the rescue. And I really focused on my mental health and I was doing better. Didn't end up going back to the rescue, focused on my business and all the life changes happen. And a few months later, my friend, a good friend, she's like a big sister to me. She asked me to be the incoming president for our local NSA chapter speakers association.
And I knew it was a bad idea.
I know, seriously, at that point I was, you know, parents are now older, even older, and need even more help. I'm really trying to build my business up so I can, you know, pay bills and all those fun things. And by the way, I started dating and got engaged to my now husband. So I'm planning a wedding, which if you've ever done, that's, it's a little stressful, just a teens.
But I didn't want to disappoint her. And so much of who I am and what I've achieved is because of volunteering and because of networking. So I hemmed in hard for like, I don't know, two, three weeks. And I was like, let me check with this person. Let me run it by this one, blah, blah, blah. And finally she said, cheryl, I need an answer. Like, I need an answer. Just. And I was like, yes.
And the second I did it, I swear, every cell in my body was just like, what did you do?
And the, you know, the, it's only 1 hour of work a week.
But yeah, I figured out how true that was. Not. And just within two weeks, I was like, what did I do?
And I realized at that point, spoke to a mentor, like, ended up stepping down from that role. But I realized that my challenge was I had no boundaries. And that's why, like, I cleared off my plate, but it started filling up again.
And I was just so concerned about being everything to everyone that I forgot to be me and forgot to take care of me. So I embarked on a boundary journey and that's where I am now.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Would it be fair for me to say that you understood you have a problem, right? That this need to define your boundaries is important?
How did you go on learning how to do that?
[00:05:50] Speaker B: So when I was in the process of making that decision that I was going to step down, I was on an airplane. I don't know where we were going, but my kindle died. And I had one of those, like, oh, crap. I have to listen to my own thoughts moments. But it was really good because I realized like, hey, yeah, I have this issue. I can't be the only one. I really can't be the only one. And I process through writing.
I'm a writer at heart.
This is my 6th book, and I've ghost written for others. I write articles. I love writing. It's just how I process the world. And I was like, you know, I should write a book about this boundary journey so that I could help other people. Cause I can't be the only one. And the crazy thing is, I outlined about 60% of the book on the airplane.
And then when I got home, I was like, all right, now we dig in. And I read every book I could find on the subject, spoke with some therapists that are friends. I spoke to coaches, and I interviewed women in my life that have strong, healthy boundaries. And not a single one of them started out that way.
This was something they learned by trial and error and a lot of pain.
So really it was taking my own experiences and kind of looking back at them. And this is what I recommend my clients do, is like, rear view mirror work.
Look at those times that you. Something. Something was asked of you and you responded and you felt not good afterwards, you know, you don't like the outcome.
That's usually where we find the boundaries.
So that was. That was kind of my journey and learning from everyone and every resource that I could find. I am still learning every single day. And usually when I have a little boundary backslide, I will write a blog about it and be like, guess what, guys, I screwed up.
Like, learning experience.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: I'm just struck by two things. One is your infinite curiosity, and the other is the self awareness and willingness to be introspective. I would almost argue that self awareness is a superpower. Throughout these discussions with these powerful women, and you mentioned, I thought it was incredibly interesting. You said nobody started off that way.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I think most of them had a burnout story.
I can think of only one out of all the interviews that I did off the top of my head that she actually had a mentor take her aside, did not learn this from her parents, but she had a mentor take her aside in the beginning of her career and say, they will suck you dry. Like, you need to set your boundaries. So she, like, she kind of learned that secondhand. Everyone else I spoke to had the. Yeah, I just completely burned out. I was what is it? Burning the candle at both ends. Running, you know, mach five with my hair on fire. Like, they all had these stories of working hard and really busting their butts to get ahead in their careers and to care for families. And one, her husband was going through cancer treatment when she had this realization.
But everybody had their own story of, this is when I hit rock bottom, and this is when I realized there was a problem, and someone, you know, someone came into their life that kind of pushed them forward and introduced them to this concept of boundaries. Because most of us, we don't learn this.
It's not talked about. It's certainly not talked about in school. But, you know, families. If you don't know, if parents don't know how to set boundaries, then how do you expect the children to learn?
[00:10:04] Speaker A: Okay, so I'll confess a few things.
One is, I had my own breakdown. I was 1819. I was working, I want to say, 16 to 18 hours a day, and I actually got hospitalized because I was dehydrated. So I'm sure you'll tell me that it's very typical. People don't set boundaries. They break down. They don't take care of themselves. First of all, and it's funny, I remember that I was just sitting in class, and I was seeing the shapes in the floor, kind of jumped out of the floor and started dancing in front of me. That's beautiful. And then I just collapsed, and I fell on the floor. I was basically hallucinating from malnutrition and dehydration. And I remember an important mentor in my life told to me, look, Ari, you need three things in your life, and you need work to be stable, you need family, and you need a hobby or something for yourself.
What he said is that if you have a rough time in one of those, then the other two will act as foundations to support you. And to me, that was. It's not easy to do. I think that at our rock bottom, it's only the beginning of our journey. But to me, that was such a huge turning point.
You're working with clients today. They, I'm assuming, keep me honest here, just went through their rock bottom, or they're seeing it in front of them. Right. They're the deer in the headlights. How do you help them navigate this? What's the advice? What are the tools and the techniques that they can work through?
[00:11:46] Speaker B: So I think the first thing that anybody, when I'm speaking to an audience, when I'm working with someone one on one, the first thing that we have to accept is that we actually have the right to set boundaries.
So many of us have been brought up that, you know, we're here to care for other people.
Our opinions, our I priorities, our needs don't matter.
And that's just not true.
And it's an old, ugly, smelly belief that we have to get rid of before you can do anything from there. Because if you don't believe that you have the right to set boundaries, nothing you learn after that is going to matter.
So that's really the first thing is just embracing that knowledge. Like, I not only have the right, but I have the responsibility to set boundaries. Because when we do, we're not just helping ourselves, we're actually helping other people as well. So that's kind of the first.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: I'm not going to let you get away with that.
What does that mean? How are we helping other people? By setting our own boundaries. That's interesting.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: So a bunch of ways. I'll give you a couple of examples.
For one, if someone asks you to do something and your plate is full, you have no ability to take on it anymore. Whether it's work or home or whatever, it doesn't matter.
And you say, okay, yeah, I'll do it. Okay. You're doing a disservice to them because you're not a superhero, even if you have some superpowers. So when it comes to actually delivering on whatever this is, you're either not going to deliver, not going to deliver on time, or not going to deliver to the quality expectation that is needed.
Work, home, does not matter. So you're really leaving whoever that person is. Kind of like in a lurch.
So that's the first way. And the other one, this example came to me a few weeks ago.
I had a friend years ago that he was my car guy. He was my go to. I wasn't making a lot of money. I had an old car. Anytime something went wrong, I called him in a panic and, and he's like, come on over, we'll fix it.
And he did that for, you know, years. And one day I called him. It was just a blinker light. You can see how much I know about cars. A blinker light, a turn signal, that's hello.
And I called him and I'm like, oh, no, my turn signal's not working. And I'm worried that I'm going to get pulled over and blah, blah, blah, my anxiety goes off the, the charts. And he was like, I'm so sorry, I'm busy this weekend. Like, I can't help you until Tuesday or whatever it was.
I went on YouTube. I figured it out. Thankfully, it did not require getting under the car or lifting it or anything, but I learned how to do it myself, and I felt so freaking accomplished.
So when you say no to someone, no, I can't help you. No, I'm not available. Whatever it is, it forces them to either find someone else who could maybe use that skill boost or whatever it is, or to look within themselves and go, you know what? I actually can do that by myself. And, man, it's a celebration.
So, yeah, seriously, when you set boundaries, yes, it's for yourself. Yes, you're protecting yourself, but you're also looking out for other people.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: I absolutely love that. And this is not just about kind of friends and life, this transition into work.
Yeah.
Now, I mean, I tell you, I have been known as the guy who always says yes at work.
And there's a challenge here because I feel that a lot of that. Those yeses where everybody else says no, that sets you apart. But on the other hand, it has a price.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So the individual that's trying to please everyone. And again, whether it's at work, whether it's at home, there's a biological anthropological. I don't know how you want to look at this kind of reasoning behind that. Are there other reasons that come up? Yes. However, for the most part, we are afraid of being eaten.
Okay. We have this.
This lizard brain that's still active. That takes us back to caveman times that if we didn't please others, if we didn't do what others wanted, there was the chance of them casting us out of the tribe. And if we're cast out of the tribe, there is no one to literally watch our backs, which means we're in danger of becoming food for a passing wildebeest.
It's not a danger today. However, we're still being controlled by that part of the brain that's like, okay, if we don't like people, they're gonna cast us out. We're not gonna have any friends. Our family's not gonna like us. We're gonna end up dead in a ditch. And, oh, by the way, we're gonna get fired because, you know, we didn't do what our bosses said.
Look, can that happen? Of course not the whole ditch thing. But can you get laid off for saying no to something?
Yeah. I mean, managers have been known to let people go for less. However, when it is reasonable for you to say no, when the expectations of your time and your abilities are just too great, then you're actually building or demanding respect in that, because if you become the, oh, I can do everything, sure.
Yes, they may like you because they can dump their work on you, but do they respect you? And do they see a lack of ability to delegate, a lack of ability to prioritize, which is what they are looking for, to move you to the next position?
So I think while that fear is always a possibility, more importantly, what are the benefits of saying no? What's going to happen when you do stand up and say, hey, you know what? I really appreciate all of your faith in me.
I'm having a challenge right now with my workload, and I'd love to sit down with you and prioritize, see if we can move something off my plate, maybe streamline something, you know, change a process, whatever it is that shows that you care. You're not just like, wow, I don't want to do this, I'm tired.
You care. You're thinking you're problem solving, you're solution focused. All of those things personally. And from what I have seen, that is, that is what leaders are looking for.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: I love that. I think such a key, important point that you made is this idea of prioritizing. And there's one of the social psychologies is that nobody knows what you're doing. So if you asked a husband and a wife, how much percentage of the work are you doing?
Each of them would answer 60, 70%. Now, that makes no sense at all, because that's more than 100%. There's 100% work. And the interesting takeaway from that is that you don't know what other people are doing. You see yourself, you don't see other people. And when a manager comes and just, they give you more and more work, they don't understand that you're at capacity.
So by saying no, really what you're saying is like, these are all the things that I'm working on. These are the priorities. Keep me honest. Are these priorities correct? Are all these tasks the right ones to work on? And am I assigning the right amount of energy time to each one of these tasks? Now, that's a great check for me. I appreciate you supporting me through this process, but if all these decisions are correct, then we need a delegate. We need to figure out, do we need more resources? Do we need to prioritize? And I've gone through that several times. I've seen the eyes of the managers open and be like, oh, shh. Like, you're doing all that. And I'm like, what should I take off? And I'm like, no, this is all super important. So it's such a shift, you can see the light bulb turning on.
And actually, I would argue, because I've lived through this, if you don't have that good communication with your manager and then you start letting balls drop, they'll be angry with you. So it's such a dangerous path to go down. You think you're doing a great job. You think you're doing a lot, but now they disappointed in your bad performance. Yes, it's a really dangerous, dangerous path to take.
Putting the manager hat on, the leader hat on.
How do we do better?
[00:21:30] Speaker B: The first one is really getting to know your employees.
Getting to know your employees for their, you don't need all their personal details, but what are they good at? Where are their weaknesses? What are their goals moving forward?
Because you may have someone who's looking to move up quickly, and they're like, yeah, throw it on me. I got this.
And you may have someone that's like, I'm kind of happy where I am. I'm great at my job, and I'm just happy here. So what are they good at? What are their goals? What are they doing? Like you were saying, you know, what is on their plate? And can somebody else within the organization, within the team, can they help that open communication where it's like, hey, if you're drowning, can you come to me before you start looking for another job? Like, let's try and help you. And you're a valued employee. We respect you, we need you, we appreciate you. What can we do? Like, we all have to work together as a team or everybody is going to fail.
And the third thing I would say is that you have to model good, healthy boundaries yourself.
If you're in the office from 05:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.
then you can tell your employees that they shouldn't work overtime or that they shouldn't work that many hours and skip vacations. But you're creating a top down culture of, no, I'm going to die at my desk and you should, too.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: That's right. That's right.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: I.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Are there signals that we can notice and this doesn't have to be a manager, right? This can be a colleague as well, supporting and listening. Are there signs or signals that we can notice when somebody's reaching that danger zone?
[00:23:41] Speaker B: That is a great question, and I will speak from personal experience here.
I was normally a very level headed employee at the rescue. Normally. And I didn't get overwhelmed easily. I wasn't, you know, like, I had 72 hats on. I'm running everything from pr to marketing to volunteers. I mean, like, I was all over the place. And when I started getting short with people, when I started just throwing my hands up and going, I can't. I can't handle this. When I started crying very openly, I mean, this, this is, I'm not a quiet crier.
Not a single person took me aside and said, hey, are you okay?
Like, you seem to have changed over the past, you know, whatever period of time. Are you okay? And is there anything I can do to help? And not a single person did that.
So, you know, I would say look for. Look for the abnormal behavior.
When somebody who's normally even keel is sitting at their desk sucking back tears, maybe ask how they're doing.
If somebody's snapping at you, that's normally a very good conversationalist or however you want to put that check in with them. And, you know, if someone had said that, if somebody had asked me, I think I was too far gone at that point, let me say that. But it would have maybe changed how I looked at the situation and been like, oh, wait a second. Maybe I need to take some time for me before I got to that point. So hopefully that makes sense.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: I want to go into a much more complicated area.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: Oh, good.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: If this wasn't bad enough, setting boundaries between couples, married, husband, wife, whatever the mix is, what are the challenges there? And is it the same as work and friendships, or is it different?
[00:26:04] Speaker B: So I would say that the challenges there are the high level of emotions and the emotional baggage.
I mean, truthfully, I'm sure there's some couple out there that, like, met in elementary school and were together ever since and have never been hurt by a member of the same or opposite sex.
I haven't met any of those people. So, you know, I have a practice marriage under my belt, as does my husband. And I think it's hard because you're not just bringing yourself to the table when you're having a boundary conversation or challenge.
You're bringing all the exes with you and you're bringing all the experiences with you. So, you know, a big part of what I teach when it comes to setting boundaries is the pause.
And it's that period where you just don't. Don't shout out the yes. Don't shout out the no.
Don't immediately, like, lose your head and go crazy on somebody. Pause and check in with yourself. And I think when we do that rather than just reacting off the cuff, you know, husband or wife says something and the other one just goes ballistic and you're like, I don't know what just caused that. You know, that kind of thing. They're very clearly pulling from a past relationship, a past experience.
So taking that pause on both of the sides, you know, both sides of that conversation, and before you say something, being like, okay, what have they gone through?
And I don't think my, my husband would mind me saying this. He's, he was adopted, so he's got abandonment issues.
So when I go into a conversation with him, I'm, I'm like, okay, how does this look from an abandonment issue? You know, and I'll, like, phrase what I'm saying or not say, you know, depending on that, and on the other side of the conversation, pausing and realizing, oh, you know what? They didn't actually say what triggered me.
They're saying something else in the moment. So I don't know if hopefully that makes sense. But I think really, that pause is so important. And just like at work, you have a mutual goal in mind. You know, you want a happy marriage and both people to be respected and, and feel loved and safe. So how do you both have to work towards that?
And one other thing I will say is, choose your battles.
At work, at home, choose your battles. Not everything is a boundary. Sometimes it's just a little compromise. And life's going to be better if you figure that one out.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: What you're saying is really simple. You're saying listen.
You're saying stop your thoughts of what you're going to say next. And you're saying be in the moment and actually listen and see where your partner or colleague or boss or employee actually is and pay attention. And notice, I don't know about you, but I feel like really being in that moment, whichever moment is. If it's with my kids, if it's with my wife, if it's with. It's a hard thing to do.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Very.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: I don't know if you've figured this out, but if you have any tips and tricks to help us on this journey of just being there for the people we love, what would you say?
[00:29:57] Speaker B: It's a great question.
I would say pause.
Approach people with empathy, and don't forget to have empathy with yourself so often. And this is really where, you know, people pleasing comes in and boundary issues come in is we put everybody else's needs above ours.
So there is a way to be with someone, to be connected to someone, to be of service to someone, but not take away from who you are and what your needs are and your priorities and finding that line. And again, learning like, it's okay.
I'm allowed to have needs.
I get that. And when my needs are being met and when I am communicating my needs, then I'm serving the other person as well, because now I'm there for them.
Now I'm available to help them with their needs as well.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: That's such an important and insightful note. The people around you want you to be happy. They want you to be the best version of yourself.
And you need to take care of yourself in order to be that version. And sometimes taking care of yourself means making time for yourself, means saying no, means prioritizing, and it's not easy.
Cheryl, you are an absolute delight. Thank you for joining us today. I have one last question, and it's a hard one. What would you tell?
What would you say to 20 year old Cheryl?
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Oh, God, don't get married the first time.
No. So let me first say that all the decisions that I've made in my life have gotten me here, and I have no complaints about that. So let me first put that out there. But my advice to someone in their twenties is to love yourself enough that when someone comes along who isn't the right person. And this could be. This could be romantic, this could be a friend, this could be at work, that when a situation or a person comes along who is not a good fit, you don't accept them and settle just because they love you. And you can't do that for yourself.
And I think so many of our decisions are based off of how do I get that self love from other people that I'm not giving myself?
And it leads us astray a lot.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: Cheryl, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today.
[00:33:10] Speaker B: Thank you.
