Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Michael, what an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having. For joining our show today.
I want to jump into a difficult question. I did not prepare you for this. I want to ask, what is the most difficult moment in your life?
[00:00:13] Speaker B: The most difficult moment was when I was recently divorced and my son, who was 8 years old at the time, we'd worked it out with my ex wife that it would be better for him if he lived with her and not with me for most of the time.
And I had to pack his bag and talk with him and say goodbye. And that was. That really was a tough moment.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: What are the feelings that go through your mind when you're making these incredibly difficult decisions and going through these incredibly difficult processes?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: The thought that goes through my mind is probably something like, this is hard, but I feel it more in my body. I mean, one of the things I've done over many, many years has been very much connected to body experience. So that's where I feel most of my pain. I feel it physically feel it in my body, around the chest, around the throat, around the top of the abdomen.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: When you're dealing with these tough situations, what do you do?
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Knowing that this too will pass, like it's not permanent, it's something that will come and will go.
And I can find solace in that also, perhaps knowing that this is something that is here for a purpose.
There is probably some good that will come out of it if I can face it and go through to the other side. So a confidence in the process of impermanence, I guess. Things changing.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: I love that. I think that's so empowering. We've heard many of our guests basically say, look, the thing that gives them power is understanding that they are not a victim of the circumstance, but they have control. And this is actually happening for them and not to them. So I absolutely love that. Positioning.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like I can choose how to be with this. Right.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: So you've, you've been studying, learning, practicing, teaching yoga for a very long time. How did you get into it?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Well, during the Vietnam War, I was drafted into the Australian Army. I lived in Australia and then went back to my job. And my job a few years afterwards was teaching in a college. I had a great setup. I was tenured, I had, I was teaching what I loved, and it was a great college. And so, you know, I had a good life, but I got to that point where I really needed to do something to stay healthy and stay fit. And the thought of going to a gym just didn't appeal to me because one of the things that happened in my basic training in the army was a lot of things that reminded me of the gym. And so it was like, do I really want to go back and lift weights and groan and grunt, do all those kinds of things? And I thought, no, I don't. What? I got to do something else. And a friend said, try yoga. So I went to one yoga class and it was, I guess a yoga class that was really hardcore and kicked my butt. And I thought, well, that's not quite what I expected. So I went back to him and said, hey, is there any other kind of yoga? And he said, oh yeah, there's plenty of other kinds. So I said, point me in another direction. So I found something that I liked and I actually got a little book about it and how to practice it at home, you know. So I was practicing at home every day and doing the yoga and the meditation and the breathing exercises. And I, I do it for about half an hour to an hour every morning. And my daughter was watching me one morning and she said, dad, I like when you do that stuff. And I said, why is that? She said, well, when you do that, you're not so grumpy anymore.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: And I thought, back end compliments over there.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, and it like, it really hit me because the area of study that I was teaching was all about behavioral change. You know, how do people change behavior, particularly in relation to organizational life. But it applies across the broad spectrum of life as well. And I was very curious in that for myself as well, you know, what's going to change me? And so I got more and more deeply involved in yoga and I found out that that's what it's really all about. It's all about how you show up in the world and having an impact on that. The practices over a period of time will change who you are as a fundamental human being, you know, and how you respond to the life that's happening to you and around you.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: So that's incredibly non trivial. I think a lot of us, when we hear yoga, we think of it as, you know, an exercise maybe similar to going to the gym or Pilates or anything like that. What's the connection between yoga and changing behavior? How does that fit together?
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Okay, so basically the mind and body are connected and we navigate life a lot through our mind and a lot of that is through future and past experience.
What we perceive might happen in the future and what we know has happened in the past. Now what's happened in the past can sometimes be traumatic or Unpleasant. And we're often reminded that maybe that's going to happen in the future, you know, so we have this storehouse of memories that provide a lens through which we filter what's happening in the moment.
So we might be, you know, standing.
Standing in a line waiting for the bus, and, you know, the bus isn't there, and we start to panic that, oh, we're going to be late for work, or da, da, da. You know, all the scenarios start to play out, which may or may not be true. But if we can come to our body as a kind of a more secure and knowing it's always in the body's, always in the present and always tells the truth. Right. That's my belief. And so we come there and it's like all I'm doing is standing in a line here and I can choose to do anything I like in this moment in terms of how I'm choosing to be here.
And worrying is one of them.
And okay, you know, those scenarios might play out, but is it going to help by me standing here, taking the next five minutes to contemplate that?
And the same with. So that's a sort of something that's happened in the past and something that's, you know, might happen in the future rather than what's really happening now. Like right now, you and I are sitting here having a wonderful conversation.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: That's so interesting. I mean, I faced, and I'm sure, as our audience has as well, many situations where I'm like, well, why? Why is this person reacting to me in this way? And I've always internalized, and I would argue this is incredibly common. You're like, oh, it must be something about me. But a thing that I've learned is that actually, many times it's more about them than it is about you.
[00:07:28] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: And it's so interesting because what you're saying is that yoga can kind of help us to change the way that we perceive, digest and internalize our own experiences. How does a physical activity do that for us? How does that even work?
[00:07:43] Speaker B: Yeah, there's really a series of steps involved in that to becoming more present to the moment.
First of all, we've got to somehow shift away of being. So while we're thinking, we're not really in our body. So the first step is really doing something that helps you inhabit your body. And that can be as simple as taking a few breaths or it can be moving and, you know, could be dancing. There's many, many different ways we can become more present to our body. You see people who turn on music, and all of a sudden they're in their body, you know, and so that's one way. And there are many ways to do that, but that's kind of the first step, and then to get focused on the moment, focused and to be able to stay there. And that's where some of the physical aspects of yoga really help. Because one of the things you're trained to do in hatha yoga and, you know, using your body in yoga postures, is to go into a stretch and explore that edge, like that place between comfort and discomfort, and to hang out there and to breathe there. Yeah. Now, that's counterintuitive to the way a lot of us do life. A lot of us, at the first sign of discomfort, we want to take something to fix it, whereas in yoga, it's the opposite. You hang out with that because it's going to teach you how to be more in the moment, more present to your body, and more present to everything.
So that's part of the training, I guess. And then. Then the next question.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Hold on. I want to explore that a little bit more. When, you know, I've had some trouble understanding these concepts of being in the present, mindfulness, et cetera, they've never really clicked for me.
What is the best way that you can describe somebody who's completely not in the moment? What are they doing? What are they thinking? What are they feeling? What's the negative aspect of not figuring out how to be right here in this moment?
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Well, I guess, first of all, you have to want to be. You have to want to change it. So you might want to first of all notice that that's what's happening. Right. I have people who say, I can't meditate. I say, why not? They say, because my mind's racing all over the place. I said, if you can notice your mind racing all over the place, you're meditating.
That's the first thing to do, is to notice what's happening in the moment. And so once you got that, you can then make a choice. You know, do I want this to continue or not? I don't. So what's the way to. What's the way to not do that so much? Well, I need to focus on something else, maybe. Maybe my breath. Let's try that. You know, and there are other ways, you know, like, I just. I was on a webinar earlier today, some research that's been done on flotation tanks, you know, where people lie in a tank with salt water and yeah, and that's a great way to shift consciousness. In fact, people can actually increase their awareness of their body by doing that. To the extent that people who can't feel their heartbeat after a series of doing floats, they can actually feel their heartbeat.
Interoception, it's called.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: There's something delightful about that. I would argue that the ability to be self aware is probably the key to self improvement. I think you agree with that.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. I think awareness is almost essential to change.
If we're aware of something, we can change it. If we're not aware of it, we're on autopilot.
And a lot of us for a lot of our life are on autopilot. Now in some ways that's not a bad things. I mean, it helps, helps you get through the day in some ways. Yeah. But if you sit and contemplate what this, you know, what's this life all about and is this how I want to spend it? You might start to wonder about whether being on autopilot is a good idea or not.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: That's so interesting because I feel like for me, when I was like very Young, in my 20s, I used to talk a lot. And then one person said, what is the value of you being on autopilot, talking a lot, just going through your stories, your rehearsed show mask, what is the value in that?
And then he, you know, he said, on the contrary, what is the value to you hearing and listening and learning something new? And I thought through that and my conclusion was, well, I've told these stories a million times. There's no value to me in this. But learning something new. Listening has tremendous value.
So it was, it was kind of enlightening, right, that if we can master this art of being in that moment and listening, then maybe our experience in that moment will be so much better. Because it's not the script that you've already played out a million times. And you open yourself to really the delights of discovery and serendipity and surprise.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And to discover, you need to be more present to what's going on around you.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: So walk us through what are the different practices in yoga that help us to really connect to the moment?
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Okay, so first of all is the breath. Breathing is almost, you know, it's the easiest place to start because we all breathe, we're just not aware that we're breathing. You know, is there a bad way.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: To breathe and a good way to breathe? Let's break the zone.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: There's different ways to breathe that will have different Impacts.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: But if you're learning to meditate, my advice would be to just breathe the way you breathe. And notice that if you wish to deepen it a little bit, then try that and see what happens. But don't feel like there's a right way to breathe. And I got to get it right. In fact, that's the biggest barrier for most people who engage these practices. They think they have to do it right. They bring that stress with them into the practice. And of course, it's counterproductive.
The idea is to not be quite so the good student, just be with what is.
And I think that's a starting place for all of us. It's about meeting ourselves where we are. Like, and you mentioned awareness. So that's also one of the practices. Like, where am I now?
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a brilliant point that by trying to reach this perfect destination, you're shooting yourself in the leg as opposed to really enjoying your journey. And that's where the value is.
That's beautiful. That's also, to me, that feels so applicable to everything in life. I had this thing with my son, and he got a bad grade. And I said, and he was very upset. And we kind of walked through. Why did he get a bad grade? And we analyzed all the things that he did. Did he not sleep enough? Da, da, da. All this. And then we finally came to the conclusion he didn't show his work, so he wasn't able to really review it properly. And I said to him, look, the grade doesn't matter. What matters is the discovery, the joy of what you just figured out and the fact that now you know how to be self. You know, introspective about what you did and how you, you know, how you can do better. And the only thing I expect of you is do a little better tomorrow. Not compared to somebody else, but compared to yourself. And you should have seen his, like, shoulders and his face. It completely relaxed him, that knowledge that he just has to do a little better in himself as opposed to meet this objective. Like, oh, that's how you breathe. That's the right way. That's the wrong way. You don't do it right, you're in the wrong. Such a wonderful, wonderfully empowering philosophy.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Oh, he's so lucky, the son.
He's got a great dad.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: You're being very kind.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Like, to have that wisdom and to be able to approach him in that way is a gift, and it will support him.
He doesn't need to go through the process of unlearning that, you know, he's, he's a failure because he's not, you know, but, but he may take that on if you, if you came down heavy on him and, you know, did had a different approach, you know, he could take away from that, you know, a mental wounding that would last for probably quite a while. Until one day he might be lucky enough to, you have a transformational moment or find the right therapist and find out that he's actually a wonderful human being after all and can do anything he wants. That's all. Okay.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: In full disclosure and I'll make a small confession to the audience.
I've never done yoga, but I did do karate and kung fu and Tai Chi for 10 years. So there's a lot of, a lot of commonalities between the two.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Oh yeah.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Practices.
And I'll tell you me personally, that I feel that, you know, kung fu, Tai chi completely changed me as a person and helped me grow. It's such a surprising thing and it's no surprise to me personally that yoga has similar impacts and effects. So I really truly appreciate that.
I agree. Breathing is important. What else? What's the other practices?
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Okay, so breathing. And then I have a whole thing on befriending your body. Like your body is, as I say, it's always in the present and it never tells a lie, right. So it's a great port to come home to. It's almost like a home. In fact, it is a home. You have this body from the moment you're born, and you're going to have it till take your last breath. And it's the only permanent home you've really got for that length of your life.
And so it is a home. It's a place of refuge if you can come into the present moment and be present to yourself through your body. Because most of the time, unless you're in some traumatic situation, your body is relatively safe most of the time. And it will tell you that. And if it tells you that and you're okay with that, then all the other stuff that's going on around you is just really, you're making it up. You know, your mind is helping you figure, create that when in actual reality you're okay, you know.
So being able to get comfortable with your body is really an important step, I think, in the whole process. Then engaging your body, engaging your body in a way that it can teach you. And we talked about the edge in my work. The edge is a really important piece, that focus point where that you come to that place between comfort and discomfort. And you hang out there. And by doing that, you can train your mind to become more one pointed. Yeah. And that's also helpful.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Let's unpack that. Let's unpack that. That's incredibly, incredibly important. We had a concept in consulting which, which, which we use very similar terms.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Push yourself to the uncomfortable. Talk to me more about what that is. Give me an example of what is. What does it mean to push yourself to that edge?
[00:18:52] Speaker B: Okay. For starters, it's not pushing, it's more allowing. Right.
So I mean, if I. And you could even do it just by squeezing your hand. Right. Just squeeze your fist and you can find a level of tightness where you're really going to start to struggle to make it tight. That's too much.
But you can also find a level where you're not doing very much at all. That's too little. What's that in between place? What's that in between place where you're squeezing and you can feel the squeeze, but it's not overwhelming you.
And it's a little effort. There's a little bit of effort there, but it's almost like effortless effort.
And if you can be with that place and focus on that and hang out with that and it will get your attention because there's enough uncomfortableness there that, you know, it's hard to think about anything else.
And so being able to hang out in those places in your body really helps you be able to hang out in those places in life.
And we all face edges in life. You know, those moments that come up where, oh, crap, you know, like, here we are again. And it's a tough moment and it's calling forth a level of presence that's hard to bring under those circumstances.
But with the training of being able to do it in my body, it's going to be easier. Yeah.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: That's so interesting. So really, if I have to translate this to my language, if you can feel comfortable with the physical sensation of tension and you can kind of perform well in that feeling, then when that happens to you outside of your control, when you're not intentionally practicing, you'll feel more comfortable there as well.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: So if you're pushed into conflict or you're pushed into a fight and you start to feel that physical manifestation of that tension, now your practice to be like, okay, I know how to handle myself in this situation. That's. That's so interesting.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And you can also regulate to find that edge. You know, like, you may be called on to do something that's uncomfortable. Like maybe you, you have to confron confront someone about behavior that is unskillful or unwise.
You can go about that in a way where you're not trying to knock them over and you're not trying to back away either. You're really there, but you're there in a very compassionate, loving and caring way that is able to help them see what you're trying to engage without you being a bully. Yeah.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: So, okay, this is, I, this is so important because you've completely flipped the script. A second ago we were talking about how we can help ourselves be more comfortable and maybe we went to relationships. Okay, but now you're talking about something totally different. You're talking about helping other people thrive in their area of development. So now actually we're talking about almost mentoring or teaching or parenting or being a boss or anything. So break that down. Really what you're talking about and keep me honest here is because I think people tend to go to extremes. They either tend to be like, we're going to be very strict about this 0x policy tolerance or oh, I'm going to be the most nice, loving, supportive. So you either have this one extreme or the other extreme. But you're proposing that the balance between tension and non tension is actually a much more interesting approach.
[00:22:42] Speaker B: Well, it really depends on the situation.
I think it's situational and that's part of it too. Like the wisdom to know the choices that are right for this situation.
That comes from the higher, the more higher order rungs on the yoga path. Right? Where you start to develop insight and wisdom and you start to be able to discern wise choices from unwise choices.
That's part of the path as well.
And that's where you know, this wisdom can come to apply. But at the same time, as well as that wisdom, the earliest training in sort of being with uncomfortable situations is really part of it too because it's not comfortable to, you know, to have to confront someone or to tell someone some bad news or you know, if you're running a business, you know, things are not so good, we're going to have to work harder. You know, those kind of things are tough.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: So, okay, so that's also delightful. Why you're saying, look, different situations require different tools and as a first step, understand the situation, understand the person who's standing against you, or you know, against is probably a poor choice of word, but the person that you're talking with and then choosing your method, your path, your intensity is as important as the execution and just being thoughtful about that upfront is incredibly important.
I mean, this is so valuable, I think, for everything we do in life. Right. Just take a deep breath.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: Think about what your strategy and tactics are going to be before you take an action. And it should be, I'll make the statement. Tell me if you agree. It's got more to do about the person that you're engaging with and the situation than you just relying on your strong suit of how you like to operate.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You can't have just one suit.
It'll work in some places, but it won't work everywhere. Right.
So that level of that flexibility and again, flexibility coming back to the body, we learn to be flexible.
It's a helpful thing. It's a helpful thing to be flexible in our mental approach to life.
Helpful to be flexible in what we hold as dear to ourselves. You know, yes, we need. We have values and we have ethics, and there are some things we probably won't compromise on. But at the same time, there's also shades of gray where, you know, a given situation might call for that and do we ask the right questions? That's the other thing. You know, it's the question we're asking ourselves and of others, one that fits the circumstances.
Like if we're talking about the war in Gaza and Israel, you know, I don't want to get political, but, you know, the right question is how can, how can, how can peace happen here so that everybody comes out okay?
[00:25:56] Speaker A: There's a. There's a lot of scientific research about this topic of questions and the social psychology, really what it talks about is this idea that when we are asking ourselves one question, we are very often substituting the question for another. Yeah, that's a, That's a psychology, a bias that has been widely researched. And it's so, so insightful for you to mention that, because if we can figure out what is the question we substituted it for, that is an incredibly empowering discovery.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: So, for example, we have the election upcoming, and we could say, well, who are you voting for?
And when I ask myself, who am I voting for? What am I actually asking myself? What question? And I think many people ask themselves different questions. You could ask yourself, well, who do I like?
That could be one question. You could ask yourself, who is more similar to me? Who represent, who is like me from different characteristics? Or if you're, you know, you could ask yourselves, well, who is the better storyteller or who has the better policy or a whole different array of things. But my point is really that what you said is brilliant. It's not about the answer, it's about what is the question I'm actually asking myself. So staying in that question and figuring out what is that question is absolutely brilliant and might I say backed up by science. It's not just a yoga thing. So I love.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: No, it's beyond that. But the practices help you get there because one of the things you're going to do through the awareness practices and the insight is you're going to start to become pretty honest with yourself because you're going to get pretty early along that being dishonest with yourself doesn't help. It just slows you down. Right.
So getting honest with yourself, I think it helps me ask different questions.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: Right.
I think the other side of that is not just what are the questions we're asking ourselves, but when we're engaging with others, what are the questions that they're asking themselves.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: And that is absolutely brilliant because you think you're saying something, you think you're asking something, but if you're pushing somebody to ask a question that is completely different than the one you thought of, then you might be unknowingly getting yourself in a bad situation.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Right.
The road to the worst of outcomes is paved with the best intentions.
Apologize for misquoting that quote. But I think that's so interesting.
Michael, what is this journey done for you? What are the stories that you can kind of see about how practicing yoga has changed how you are interacting in your own life?
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Well, believe it or not, I still struggle at times.
It doesn't guarantee a free ride, but what it does is it means that whatever I'm faced with, I can face it a little differently.
There's a level of confidence there that the path I'm on is the path that will help me deal with whatever comes my way. And of course, the ultimate is death.
And that's. Given that I'm getting on in years, a lot of my attention these days is going to.
Around. The question is, how do I, how do I embrace death? In a way, that's a wise way to do that. Yeah. Because it's a, it's, it's. None of us are getting out of here alive, you know.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: So life is a terminal condition.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's one of the questions, but also other questions. Relationships, parenting.
And, you know, I've made mistakes. Don't, don't, don't get me wrong. I've made, you know, things that I've done that when I, when I, I think part of the, one of the perils on this kind of a path is when you get to a certain place, you look back and you're a little bit horrified at where you were 10, 15, 20 years ago. You know, it's like, oh my God, how could I have been so uncaring? How could I have been so, you know, non empathetic and dispassionate or whatever it is, you know, whatever you're noticing about yourself and your.
But you know, you've also got to look at it and say, well, I did the best I could with what I had then and what I've got now is an opportunity to learn from all of that. I think that's probably the biggest thing. To come back to your question again, I'd say the biggest thing that I've got is to realize that from this moment now, I can choose the actions and the way of being that is going to take me to where I want to go and I can deliberately focus on that and embrace that and engage that.
Like a big thing for me in my life now is love. I want to be a loving human being. I want to love the people that matter to me. I want to love all beings. Yeah. So how do I do that in my daily life? What does that mean? How do I have to prepare for each day to be able to do that? And for me it's gone for a three mile walk, doing some yoga and meditating. It takes a while to get my day started.
But that by doing that and engaging that, I prepare myself for being that person that I want to be that particular day.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: I absolutely love that. I mean just having that decision on how you want to be and being mindful about that. I think that so many of us are just kind of in the rat race. Just reacting and taking a proactive decision is, I think it's delightful, it's refreshing.
Here's an experience that I had at some stage when I was young. I kind of had all the answers and I was 100% sure that I'm right about everything.
And as I matured, I learned that everything has two sides and there's a lot of stuff that I just don't know.
It's kind of horrifying to come to that conclusion, to be aware and knowledgeable that there that you don't know. And at least through, you know, my experience with Tai Chi and meditation and Kung fu, these are the uncomfortable truths that you learn. And I half jokingly. But there's a little bit of truth to It I say I miss the days in which I was a know it all. Because there's a sense of.
There's a sense of comfort. And the best expression, right, is that ignorance is bliss. Yeah, right. That's the truth of the matter. Ignorance is bliss.
My question to you is, have you gone through the similar experience, right, that getting comfortable with the uncomfortable is actually not that easy? And how have you dealt with it?
[00:33:28] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think the further I've gone, the more I'm comfortable with not knowing.
Because there is a hell of a lot that I don't know. And I'm sure there's a lot that other people don't know too, even if they think they do.
And as a species, even there's a lot we don't know. Like, look at the mystery of life. Like look up in the sky at night, you know, there's a lot up there we don't know.
And beyond that. Yeah.
So that's a given that I don't. But I do. What I do know is what works and what doesn't while I'm riding this bus called life, right.
Or at least I'm learning. I'm learning what works and what doesn't. I'm learning what gives me the life that I might prefer.
And for me, that's things like loving relationships, connection, peace, harmony, giving, generosity, supporting other people who need to be supported, but at the same time not burning myself out in the process of that because that's counterproductive.
So how do I do that in a way that works and getting better at that?
That's what I want to know and that's what I'm willing to put time and energy into learning.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: These things you're talking about, they sound like values, like your fundamental values in life.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: I guess they are, yeah. It's. What do you value? What matters to you in life? Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Would you argue that your values and perception about life has changed over the years?
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Oh, they've changed a lot.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: What is something, let's say 10 years ago you didn't value, but today you tremendously value.
[00:35:30] Speaker B: Well, I was born an only child, and as an only child, I learned to take care of number one and to hell with anybody else who got in the way of that.
And, you know, so in my younger years, I got really good at getting my own way and really good at learning how to manipulate if I needed to to get that.
And slowly over the years, I became more and more aware of some of the unskillful behavior that I was engaging and the impact of that because it wasn't going unnoticed or unfelt. Right. And so there were repercussions.
And luckily I was able to take that feedback and learn and say, do I really want to be that kind of person? And it's hard for me to change that because I've had a lot of training, a lot of practice, one might.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: Say a lifetime until that moment.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But it's not how I want to show up tomorrow.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: What helped you kind of break that pattern of like, there is something that I'm doing that I believe in.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: What. What awoken you to. Wait, hold on. There is an issue here. What was that moment? Do you have a salable moment that you recall?
[00:36:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, a divorce, that. That can be a telling moment. Right. Like I can. I can blame.
Blame the other person or I can say, you know, what's. What's here to learn takes two to. What have I done to create this? Right.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: Wonderful. Yeah, I, you know, I. My moment personally was when I got the same feedback from three different people that had absolutely no connection between them. And three people were telling me, ari, you do this thing, it's not good.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: And I was like, wait, these people don't know each other. This is. Can't be. But how is this happening at the same time, different people, unrelated, are all telling me, look, you need to think about this. To me, that was a wake up call. Right. If you're hearing the same feedback, different people that are unconnected, maybe there's. Maybe there's some truth there.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: And I think there's a piece that has to happen to be able to do that. Well, as acceptance, you've got to be able to accept that. Yes, I am not the perfect human being. I'm an imperfect human being and I'm willing to learn and grow. And in order to learn and grow, I need feedback. But I also need to not beat myself up with feedback either.
I could really get the big stick out and that's not going to help. It's just going to delay things.
Is there truth here that I need to listen to and take a hold of and work towards changing? But you asked another piece.
What's the flip side of. I notice I'm being selfish. So what's the flip side of that? Well, the flip side of that is to practice generosity. If I'm being selfish, I need to practice generosity. You know, if I'm taking care of number one, maybe I need to take care of everybody else and put them first. Maybe I need to be the guy that sits at the table and waits till everyone else has taken. Served themselves before I take mine.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: I love that this duality of extremes I think is that we talked about before. It kind of comes to play here again. Right. People tend to be on the extreme of either, you know, I'm going to be incredibly self critical or I just don't care what anybody else says.
I agree. But what's really interesting is bringing it back to your previous point about being on that border of, that point of tension where you're somewhere in the middle and feeling comfortable there. To me, that seems to be incredibly valuable because you're not dismissing yourself and making less of yourself by acknowledging a mistake in an opportunity, but you're also not ignoring your opportunity to become better by just ignoring the feedback completely. So it's, I, I'm starting to see how, you know, practicing that state of mind can be beneficial in all kinds of ways in life. So that's, that's quite a, quite a valuable, insightful, you know, connection. I really appreciate that.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, more recently, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll acknowledge that, you know, as well as yoga, I mean, yoga and Buddhism are very, very similar. In fact, the Buddha was a yogi before he was the Buddha.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: Oh, I did not know that.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah, he was an ascetic yogi. He practiced for seven years. He practiced all kinds of ascetic yoga practices like sleeping on a bed of nails and eating one grain of rice a day and stuff like that. Fasting, intense fasting.
But he realized that that wasn't the way, that was too extreme. Just like you're saying, you know, that was, that was just. And so his whole approach is this middle path, and I've taken that on. It really comes from ancient yoga, but it was, it's, it's, if you want to look for it today, it's found pretty much in most, most Buddhist paths, this idea of the middle way. So it's not about extremes, it's about finding that place that's, that works. Yeah.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: And probably, you know, in this, this year here in the United States with elections going on, probably this idea of finding middle ground and being genuinely interested in listening and hearing the other side and figuring out that actually these are complicated challenges that we're dealing with and there's no, no right answers, but a lot of complexity.
I would argue we could all use a tremendous dose of that.
Michael, what an absolute delight.
As our guests know, none of this show is scripted. You didn't get any questions in advance. In fact, I didn't know what the questions I wanted to ask in advance is. So it's always such a delight for me to kind of go down these rabbit holes. I do have one quote unquote scripted question, which is a question we ask most of our guests. Okay, if you had to go back and advise 20 something year old Michael, what would that be?
[00:41:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
Huh. That's a great question. I would tell him to probably step into that uncomfortable place of connecting with others even though they are not doing nice things, even though they can be unkind, even though they can be.
Yeah, sometimes not very nice. People don't dismiss them so easily. Learn about them, find out more about them.
And I think, you know, that goes through to where we are today politically. You know, I don't think we're really find enough out enough about each other.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Michael, what an absolutely joy. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I appreciate you.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Thank you, Ari. I've enjoyed every minute of it. And you said it'd be fun and it was. Thank you. You ask great questions.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: I appreciate that.
