Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Mark, welcome aboard to the show. So happy to have you with us today.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Good to be here, Mary. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Mark, I would like to give you a little bit of a platform to complain right now. What makes HR so difficult?
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, Harry, how long have we got? I assume this is the first episode in a season of episodes. Is it?
[00:00:26] Speaker A: I think there's an under undervalued point around the challenges in HR which really drive the things that matter. So I think would be a great starting point.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's an interesting question. It's a, to be honest, a bit of a challenging question for me because I do tend to be a bit of an eternal optimist and tend to see the good in life, people in situations, which is not a bad characteristic, but some would say likely quite naive. So if I try and think about some of the kind of bleaker things that are going on in the world, it likely does have an impact on the world of hr. I think HR roles are often a reflection of what's going on in broader society because we deal with people every day and people are interacting with the world in a different way and that presents a whole set of challenges. So I think that could extend into a whole range of different things. The increased polarization that we're seeing in the world in terms of how people respond to things I see that come into the workplace.
There's lots written and talked about in terms of an increased lack of civility in society which comes into the workplace. We also see a lot around people shifting their perspectives around trust as well, which can have an impact. So I think all these things can make the world of work a very dynamic and challenging place. And as HR leaders, leaders are often in a position where we're expected or hold ourselves to an expectation that we need to deal with those things. So that's what can make it challenging for sure.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: One inherent challenge that HR is not really managing anybody. And when you kind of think about the everyday employee, they're really working with their boss. How do you take on these issues? You talked about polarization, civility, trust, when you're kind of outside of the day to day loop.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it does. It's kind of a, you know, as you say, kind of a structural challenge that I think we deal with as HR leaders. And I think the way that we deal with that is by having to have pretty good influencing skills. And I think on that basis that we can start to influence some of that behavior.
I'm not a particularly hierarchical person but things do often start at the top and work their way down. And as HR leaders, if we have the opportunity to influence people at a more senior position, then just the accountability of the hierarchy means that you can start to influence those decisions as they or those ways of doing things deeper into the organization.
And then, you know, I think I'd like to think, and I've worked with many leaders like this, leaders who are open and you know, I'd suggest the vast majority are. I was actually talking to a couple of people at the weekend, kind of outside of a work context and not people that I'd met before. And they said, what do you do? I was like, oh, I work, work in hr. And somebody said, oh, a job for life. Then I was like, oh, okay. I'm not sure I've had that reaction in a while. And they were like, oh yeah, you know, this was a relatively senior person. He said, my, my HR person is the person I probably spend the most with. I was like, wow, yeah, that's encouraging. So I think if they're leaders out there who are working proactively with, you know, what perhaps traditionally we'd call our HR business partners, then I think they do get the benefit of that relationship proactively and get the input from a different perspective.
I think you're right. If I dial down the naivety, the rose tinted glasses for a second, I think there are also a bunch of people who will not be doing that. And then we often get called in to deal with situations and do the classic sweeping up stuff after events have happened, which is never a particularly good position to be in.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: You're clearly outlining two, let's say, approaches. There's a top bottom approach where you're influencing leadership's culture and that trickles down. And then there's the bottom up approach.
Is HR able to influence the culture kind of employees upwards?
[00:04:42] Speaker B: So more of a bottom up approach? Yes, yeah, I think so. But it needs boots on the ground.
It needs a pretty cohesive plan and ways of measuring that and tracking that and ensuring progress. But yeah, for sure. I think you can definitely influence things bottom up. I think just doing it top down is, doesn't work.
You often hit some sort of permafrost layer in the organization which means that you can't get messages throughout the whole organization. So I think you have to, to very much do both. I think similarly, doing things bottom up in isolation don't necessarily work either because you often result in there being a bit of a disconnect. I think about it From a, you know, when I was a kid, we were building the Euro tunnel from the UK to France and you know, they're digging from the UK and digging from, from France and the risk of people not meeting. And I think it's very much like that. I think you have to make sure there's pretty cohesive plan. But yeah, I think we can, we can definitely influence bottom up.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: So tell me more when you've kind of been in these situations where the plans didn't work out from an HR perspective, what did that look like? What were the challenges?
[00:05:53] Speaker B: Oh, Harry, the plans always work out. Sorry, I'm not sure. I'm sure we had. No, I think, I mean, where the plans don't work out. I mean, I think the plans don't work out when for a whole range of different reasons, it's hard to kind of generalize. But I think typically where there is a misalignment in terms of what the intent was and the actual action that's occurred, that can often result in there being a pretty bad misalignment, a pretty bad disconnect around things. If you're not getting that clarity from the top, it's. I've been in the situations plenty of times and I like to think I learn from these situations. But whereas an HR leader, the tricky position you often find yourself in is that you've got real clarity around what it needs, what needs to be done to kind of drive the agenda forward, to make you a more engaging place to work, to be more. What we call a wage acts more people first. But there's a disconnect between your expectations of what that means and what other people think when it comes to those particular terms. So you often find yourself in a situation where you're trying to push something that people frankly don't believe in to the same extent. So that's something that you have to obviously try to avoid through lots of conversation, trying to get lots of alignment. But I can't pretend it doesn't happen where you are in that situation.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: What does that look like? So when you, you kind of saying there's a disconnect in what a people first culture might look like, what is the perception that you had versus the perception that another executive had? And when you kind of figured out, oh, we're seeing this completely differently, it.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Kind of results in disengagement, essentially. I mean, you have a bunch of people who perhaps will feel as though they're not as connected as you think they are. And some of the kind of programs, some of the initiatives, some of the things that, as an HR leader you think should be done aren't being done. People essentially aren't buying into them. And it could be as simple as the way in which people are engaged in a conversation. It could be as simple as somebody being asked for feedback and how you respond to that feedback.
The reality is, one of my favorite definitions around culture is that your culture is represented by the worst behavior that you're willing to accept as an organization. So as an HR leader, you can be doing a bunch of stuff that you think is making a difference. And if it's not being brought to life, then that can easily be undone.
And it's not necessarily just, you know, there could be a disconnect at an executive level. Not to say that that hasn't happened before. It's equally, as you start to your question earlier, as you start to go through the organization, you could start to see disconnects there as well when you're trying to influence. So it's different levels.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: So let me kind of cut to the chase. When you say a disconnect, you mean a specific executive, maybe very senior, that isn't necessarily representing the values or the culture that is beneficial to the organization. Is that a fair statement?
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Or the culture isn't representing the culture in a way that you're aligned with. So I think you're. I agree with what you just said, and that is a very relevant situation. But they. That executive who isn't aligned could say, well, did we ever align?
When was the discussion where we aligned around what we meant by being a people first organization or by being a people centric organization, whichever phrase you want to use. So I think it does need a lot of clarification and a lot of definition.
But it's also, it's a very, It's a, It's a feeling. It's. It can be a very hard thing to, to put words to. And certainly the, the thing that I look for is, you know, that people talk often about the golden rule, you know, treat other people the way that you would like to be treated. And I, I'm like, well, that's, that's not relevant here. You know, it's that classic platinum rule where we're treating people the way that they want to be treated. So when you're providing that level of almost personalization, that level of individualization, trying to kind of create an environment that really works for an individual, and we're all unique, we all have different expectations, and that can be really difficult to define and get Alignment on. Because it's going to feel very different in different situations. But that's. Yeah, that's kind of my.
Yeah, that's kind of my holy grail. That's what I'm working towards. And it's, you know, kind of one day at a time in many respects.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: That's an incredibly important point. And there's a. There's actually significant research behind this thing called egocentric bias. And what that means is that we kind of assume that other people value the same things that we value.
And that's, that's really, you know, do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. But the whole point of egocentric bias is that different people value different things. So I love your. I love your point. That's incredibly important. How does this build into feedback? If you see, let's say, an executive that is not embodying these values, is it a private discussion that you have with them?
How do you even address this when you see that kind of disconnect?
[00:11:21] Speaker B: I think again, it does depend. I think the reality is that you would look for all sorts of different ways to provide people with that feedback and expect that it's built on a trusting relationship. So I think if you've invested in the relationship with that person, then you can find different ways of sharing your perspective and getting alignment on different things. And you know, kind of the. What I just shared in terms of being very conscious of the other person. Trying to avoid your point around egocentric bias, I think is really interesting because I sometimes question that for myself. I mean, I like to think that I don't have this massive ego that kind of goes around, but that has to be there somewhere for myself as well. So if I'm trying to drive an organization to be more people first, because I think making work better is just a really fulfilling purpose.
Somebody much more qualified than I would be able to kind of analyze those statements and say, was a bunch of ego in there, Mark, that you're putting on them world. Maybe the world doesn't want work to be a better place. Maybe the organization you're working at doesn't necessarily want to drive that kind of performance or drive that outcome. So I think you have to be very conscious and empathetic towards the other person and ensure that you're providing them with constructive feedback that's going to help them along the journey and be equally very open to the feedback from that person as well. And I think it's through those conversations that that's where you'll start to create Much more alignment and be much more joined up. But that's maybe some of that's a little bit philosophical. I think the reality is if you're in a situation where somebody says something which is frankly out of line, then as an HR leader you have to pick them up on that stuff in the moment as quickly after the event as you possibly can and provide clarity around why that wasn't appropriate. And that could be as simple as a very standard feedback model which is around, well, what was the situation, what behavior did I see and what was the impact on other people and what are we going to do to make sure that doesn't happen again? So I think just having those kind of direct conversations can be really helpful.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: You're alluding to a challenge where there might be a disconnect between does it people centric workspace actually drive productivity?
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Is that pushback that you've received and what did that look like?
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Oh yeah. And I think, you know, I would definitely have received that pushback in relation to a whole bunch of organizations. I think, you know, even to an extent we're on a journey at Wajax to continue to build a people first company. We don't say that we are a people first company and there's work to be done and we accept that. But I think the fact that we've got a really strong ambition is really exciting in terms of the work that we're doing. But to an extent in that situation, but certainly in other situations I've been in, there's this kind of people turn it into a bit of an either or. It's either that people thrive or your business thrives. And I can argue until the proverbial cows come home that that isn't the question that we need to ask because these two things can happen concurrently.
This is kind of a cohesive, very integrated relationship between the two. And it's not about one over the other.
And you know, maybe a little bit of that is spin and framing, but I think it's important to acknowledge that if you are in a situation where an organization is doing well and your profits are doing, you're achieving more than you expect in terms of profits. And the reinvestment of that into your people experience is going to increasingly engagement, it's going to increase productivity, it's going to increase the retention that you have with your people. And then it becomes this kind of flywheel effect moving forward.
And on the flip side, if I'm investing in my people, I'm investing in their skills, I'm Investing in their wellbeing. I'm investing in their sense of engagement and giving them the tools they need to do their job, whatever it might be, then that's going to help the business.
I find that I think in terms of the way in which people often need to hold things and there needs to be a trade off. I think that limits our thinking around these different opportunities. And so holding these two items and recognizing it's more complex to think about how can we be congruent? I think in terms of how these two things connect, I think is a much more important way to think about these things, but can be challenging. I think people are looking for, I would go as far as to say, as I think we've become a bit lazy around some of these topics. I think people are looking for kind of easy answers when the right answer needs a bit more thought.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: What's the number one thing that kind of the light bulb turned on and they kind of figured it out? Oh, this is important because of what is that X factor that comes in.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: What might seem like quite a trivial example of somebody perhaps who's raise an idea about something that they haven't done before or somebody who sends you a note just to kind of acknowledge how the change in the benefits program has impacted their family. It could feel quite innocuous. But just where you see these activities happen I think can be very powerful. And it's often when you're as executives, you're not in the way. I think executives we can often. And I find myself doing this. I was talking to somebody on my team about this this morning. I find myself trying to be helpful, but actually in reality I'm getting in the way and so being able to kind of step out the way. But then from almost like the idea of being on the balcony, being standing on the balcony and looking down and seeing things working well. Yeah, I think that can be really powerful.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Do you have a specific story of feedback you got from an employee that was just incredibly important to them and touching to them in regards to a benefit or any kind of policy?
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Oh, I'm lucky because I have the opportunity to connect with people a lot and you know, I have the opportunity to.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: I love the way you do it. By the way, I saw the road trip trailer post that was delightful.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So I don't know, it's kind of. I find it a very fulfilling way of being able to connect with our people because we are distributed across so many different locations and branches. So it makes it quite complicated. And that's where I think it reinforces just the diversity that we have in the organization to connect with people in person in that way. So every year I have an opportunity to literally speak one on one with at least 10% of the organization as well as other connections throughout the year. There's a couple of situations that come to mind. One quite recently where one of our colleagues got in touch with me quite frustrated about a bonus that they thought they were going to get. And then we realized there was an error in the calculator. So he had an expectation he was going to and then he didn't. And this was very much brought to home to me in the, you know, the reality of the kind of cost of living crisis that we're seeing. And this wasn't a huge amount of money by any means, but the opportunity to have a conversation with this person and hear the impact of not receiving that bonus was having on him and his family and he was talking about Christmas presents and etc was just such a powerful reminder of the need for us to do a couple of things. One, manage expectations differently and not do better, frankly, around that. But I think also just the work that we can do around financial wellbeing. Financial wellbeing is one of the biggest causes of some of the other elements around certainly mental health that we see so much more that we can do there in this situation. But it's that reminder and then another situation when I first joined, so many stereotypes about people. So people saying that, oh yeah, lots of people there, you know, they want to, they want to get a decent paycheck and likely move on to the competition down the road for a couple of dollars more an hour. And I was like, is that really true or is that just what we believe? And to an extent is true. You know, there are examples of that, but I remember connecting with some, a group of technicians and one in particular, quite a young guy and he had stayed at wajax. He loved working at wajax because of our health benefits plan. He was much more interested in that and the fact that that helped him support his family than necessarily thinking so much around his hourly pay. So it's just, I think important to back to the point I made earlier, this reminder of just everybody's unique and we need to kind of one remember that, but keep on getting the feedback to ensure that we don't miss or lose that connection.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: I appreciate that I can share a personal story with my children. My wife actually travels for a living back in the day and here in the States, as you may well know, the vacation time after labor after giving birth is very short, about six weeks. So she was back on the road about six weeks later. And there's a. There's a program where basically you can deliver the, you know, milk from the mom back home when she's traveling. It's called stalk or something like that.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: The company agreed to cover that. Now, you would think, okay, this is just a, you know, whatever X amount of dollars to help an employee.
And you would think, okay, you know, like, it's not a big deal, but that incredibly emotional connection between really supporting your family, supporting your child, which is supporting by your employee, by your employer, sorry, created such a thing that was appreciated by her. It drove this huge increasing, let's call it loyalty and engagement. So it's not just the money. Some things that the employer does or doesn't do can have just outsized impacts which are maybe a little hard to understand.
So I really appreciate your point.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that kind of reinforces just how powerful it can be. And I think that reminds me of the challenge we often have as HR leaders, because there's this kind of need often to think about kind of rules and policies and consistency and equity and many of those important topics, but at the same time, leaving leaders with the. If it's required the discretion to make the choice around what's right for that particular individual in that circumstance as well. So it's always that tricky balance.
[00:22:38] Speaker A: That's a wonderful point. You mentioned something which I think is incredibly interesting.
There's this conflict between our perceptions or beliefs and reality.
And specifically you mentioned, you know, oh, people would move on for extra few bucks an hour.
The problem is that Pygmalion effect, if you're familiar. Basically, it's this idea that what you believe manifests into reality. Right. So if you think people are just going to move on for an extra few bucks, then maybe you're treating them that way, which is reinforcing that cycle of people actually taking that action. So there's this huge disconnect between what we believe, what the reality is, and how we're behaving. How do you counter that? What is the strategies for you to kind of change that mindset? And not necessarily around this point, but really all these limiting beliefs that aren't necessarily true, or I really should say, don't have to be true.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think it's great framing.
I think there's a bunch of stuff to kind of go after. I think, you know, I'm sure there's overlap with some of the comments were making earlier in terms of how we think about our own egos and the kind of limiting beliefs and the kind of perceptions we have around the world.
And a lot of that will be formed by, or all of that is likely formed by the experiences that we've had. So I think the challenge we often have as leaders, not just HR leaders, but in this case HR leaders, is that we're trying to change that belief system.
And so, you know, I can think of all sorts of examples of leaders who've been kind of almost brought up on a particular way of leading, which was the way they were led by their, their own leaders, you know, often back in the day. And I, I'm not one of these people that thinks that the, the fact that time has gone by that means that we've suddenly shifted our leadership approach. I think, you know, there were good leaders hundreds of years ago, there were good leaders 50 years ago, as there are good leaders now. But I think it is fair to say there's much more complexity for leaders to manage. I do find that lots of people do limit themselves by the beliefs of how they were led. And so that will often manifest itself in terms of people even thinking about generational differences, thinking, well, I had to be in the office every day and I had to make sure I was going above and beyond and being the first person there and the last person to leave, etc. And all sorts of other ways as well. So I think the way to overcome that is a couple of things. I think one is holding up a bit of a mirror, which is often feedback that you'd receive from people in terms of engagement surveys. Other 360 tools can be really powerful. Just kind of holding up the mirror in terms of what the impact of that behavior is. And then coaching is kind of working with people to, to kind of encourage them to start to challenge some of those beliefs and some of those preconceptions they have and encourage a level of curiosity, encourage a level of humility around trying to think differently about those things and take that feedback on board. And again, this is where my naivety comes in because I can see a very, and it's not linear, but kind of an approach to how people work through those different elements. But I've done a, you know, did a bunch of, or do a bunch of coaching and within coaching, we often talk about the fact that you need to go through a level of building some awareness and then the kind of really important step around accepting that Feedback, which then leads you into a choice, which then leads you into action. So if you've got awareness, acceptance, choice, action through any part of that process, you can fall down in some way. You can decide not to go to the next step. You're making a choice by saying, well, I've been told something, I'm not going to accept it, and so I'm not going to do anything. So it could fall down at the acceptance stage even before it gets to the choice stage, where my choice is not to do anything. So it's a pretty.
It's kind of almost having to, again, treat every leader as an individual Leader. We've got 400 leaders at Wajax, and I feel like we need to work with them all as individuals to get them through that journey. And that's really, you know, that's probably not even realistic, never mind hard to do. But that's. Yeah, that's probably likely the best approach because that's how you'll start to challenge some of those beliefs and some of those preconceptions and encourage people to change them. And if we don't change them, then they won't change their behavior.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: This is an incredibly important point when I've been incredibly cynical over all these kind of personality tests over the years. So when I came into 360 feedback, I was like, okay, this is another one of these things. It was transformative. Yeah, it surprised me. I ate my hat. I admitted I was wrong, but it was scary as well. Tell us a little bit about 360, and I'm sure there's many ways to do it and, you know, we don't have to get into that. But what does it mean in its core and why does it really the. I don't know if you would agree to say that. It's the first step in going on that journey that you describe right now. That's definitely one approach to do it. So share with us a little bit about what that means. If anybody on the show hasn't come across 360s.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Yeah, happy to. I mean, I think 360. I mean, great that you've had that experience as well. And the word transformative I can relate to. I think it can be a really powerful tool. So, you know, essentially with 360 feedback, as the name suggests, you're getting feedback from the whole kind of circumference, if you like, of the people that you're working with. So that would include your leader. Often your leader's leader would include peers and also people that are working for you, colleagues that are working for you and they could be direct reports or often, if you don't have that many direct reports, people that you're interacting with, recognizing that we have teams and structures, are a lot more dynamic than perhaps they used to be. So you're getting feedback from those people.
You know, it's the classic phrase that people are then sharing their perceptions. It's how they, they're sharing how they experience you as an individual. So it may not be who you are as an individual, but it's certainly how they're experiencing you. But if you frame the questions in the right way, if you get the feedback in the right way and then it's delivered in the right way, it can be very transformative.
I'm not sure, Ari, whether I'd say it's the kind of the best first step. I think it is often the first step that people go to, but if you've got situations where people perhaps aren't ready for that tool, then it. I think people often go two ways. It's great that you went the more kind of I'm going to eat my hat. You know, this is transformative route because I had certainly lots of experience where people then close off too much.
It can be a little bit overbearing or overwhelming in some respects, but I think it's a great tool to use as long as you're using it in a thoughtful way with a bit of. There's a bit of control around it in terms of the environment that you're doing it in.
But yeah, super powerful. I've had the same experience as a leader. I've had a bunch of experience in terms of giving people 360 degree feedback. And it can be pretty transformative.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: I think you mentioned two really important aspects of it and this is true beyond the 360. I think any kind of feedback interaction, this happens. But what's special about the 360 is that you're getting all this feedback all at once.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: And for sure it can be overwhelming from that perspective. However, here's really two very important aspects of it. One is that if you're getting the same feedback from multiple people, like it's really difficult to ignore it at that stage because you can write off any one person. But writing off three, four people in the organization reoccurring feedback, you've really got to look inwards and ask yourself, hold on, is this what I'm trying to do? And then the other point that you made, which I thought was brilliant, there really is a difference between your intents, who you want to be, what you're trying to do, what you're getting at. Right. And how people perceive you. And what one of my favorite bosses used to say all the time is perception trumps reality. And if you're being perceived in a way that is very different to what you're actually trying to do, then there's something in delivery that's obviously wrong. So it's such an opportunity to kind of rethink how you're approaching things. So I'm, you know, I've completely gone the other way. I think it's a delightful opportunity when it goes wrong. Right, so you're saying it can be overwhelming. I'm assuming that people just feel under attack and maybe disillusioned and that can be a very violent feeling.
A Would you agree with that? But the more important question is assuming that that's true, how do you prepare? How do you prevent that from happening?
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's true. I mean, I think you have to be aware that there could be that reaction. I've seen that reaction. I think again, probably. What's your definition of violence? I haven't seen direct violence, but I think you.
[00:32:07] Speaker A: No, I meant just the feeling that you're under attack. Right. Emotional kind of violence.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: I think there's the risk of, you know, been many situations where you have people, I think I know who said that. And then you can see that they're, you're maybe being a bit calculated, calculating in terms of repercussions, et cetera. Even if they don't, you know, that could be a conscious thing or an unconscious thing. So I think the, you know, your question around, well, what can you do to avoid that? I think is in the setup ultimately. And so I think you want to kind of set up something like this, I think ideally in a culture that is a feedback based culture. And so I think if this becomes something that you're, you're doing as an organization on a pretty regular basis and making sure that this isn't something that you do in your kind of remedial type situations, then that can start to build much more trust around the process.
And I think it's also if you've got somebody who is going to be the person that you're giving feedback on, then it's often helpful to start by giving that person the opportunity to give feedback on others. So this is back to our point earlier about top down versus bottom up. The kind of top down approach can work quite well when it comes to 360 because you start with the more senior people, their team can provide their input and then you start to kind of cascade it down. That can be a helpful technique.
And I think through that technique and Iggy, my leader, has been a great example of this, and I've tried to do this as well in the past myself, is that when you're. When you receive the feedback as the leader, you're doing that with people and you're saying thank you for your feedback. And it was, you know, these are. This is what I heard you say and this is what I'm going to do as a result. And I'd love you to hold me accountable to these things. And you do a bit of contracting with people. So there's those kind of techniques, I think, that help build trust. I think the other thing in terms of the powerful thing, and I've. I've had this done badly and seen this done badly before where, you know, suddenly you do your 360 and your report gets emailed to you and you're kind of reading through it in isolation and making all sorts of assumptions about stuff. I think just back to this idea of doing it in a controlled environment. I think having somebody who is necessarily be a qualified coach, but I think it's helpful if they are somebody who's equipped to go through that feedback with you in the right way, I think is also another really important way of just making sure that you avoid some of those things that happen.
Maybe the last thought that comes to mind I think, is there having a bit of accountability to that as well. I think the leader of the person who's gone through the feedback plays a really important part in all of this.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: I would argue that it's almost best not to do it with your direct manager, that a third party, which is not necessarily involved with historical details, who can kind of be disconnected and not judge you based on the feedback that you got, you know, for. For the future, but a person who really just cares about your success. So that kind of coach that you're describing, I think that's absolutely delightful there. There's an element of feedback and time which I'd like to dive into.
And I'll take a very strong stance here. I think these annual reviews are completely wrong.
And specifically the fact that they're annual, they're once a year. You know, it kind of happens where you have no control to everything that happened over 12 months. This point in time review, what's your philosophy? Would you agree or disagree?
[00:35:46] Speaker B: I would agree on the assumption that the I Think sometimes when we talk about annual reviews, we, we kind of paint a picture or make an assumption that that's the one conversation that's had with the individual during the year.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: And it's often not. In most cases, I'd say it's not. Certainly not the one conversation that you'd have with your team member. God help us if it is. I wouldn't like to see that person.360 but it certainly could be ensuring that it's not the only conversation around performance that's had during the year. And so I think sometimes the benefit of doing an annual review, assuming that there's been ongoing conversations during the year, does provide a bit of formality that can often be helpful. I think people want feedback. They want to hear how they're getting on. I think lots of research shows that. And if you're able to, or if it suits the organization to do that in a more kind of formal setting once a year and capture that information and use it for calibration, et cetera, then maybe it's fine.
You know, certainly at wajax, that's pretty much the process we follow now. And it's not, it's not the burning platform for me to kind of go and change that process. We'll likely change it in time, but I'm only going to change it when I've got confidence that leaders are having, are ready to have regular ongoing conversations with their people and provide feedback, etc. And so, you know, I'm a bit in a, a situation where I've got something that's working relatively well for some people and I'm not ready to shift that until we kind of, yeah, we built some of the foundations on the other side.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: So let's unpack that for a moment.
We would both agree that continuous feedback of employees has greater benefits. If I did something, you know, poorly six months or a year ago and I'm getting feedback, you know, way late in the game, it's way more difficult, less impactful for me to really change my behavior and do better. In fact, what it feels like I'm just getting punished for something that nobody even gave me that feedback. Now you said, and I think this is showcasing that you're very lucky to be in a great organization where that feedback does happen continuously. And that's wonderful. But I've seen a lot of, oh, you don't hear about it until it's the annual review. So regardless of the technicality of the process happening once a year, what does it look like, that culture of continuous review where you're really kind of helping both the employee and the executives be on this journey of self improvement.
[00:38:29] Speaker B: Well, I think it is that feedback rich culture. I think it's. And that can be with you as a leader, with your team members, but it's again, it's in all directions. So it's, it's feedback to your peers, it's feedback to your, your own leader. So I think just, you know that that kind of feedback rich culture again, which I think is, is kind of generating all of this, all these ideas, this opportunity for improvement, etc is really important.
But again that's not just saying that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
It's as much around the person giving the feedback and having the, having to use the word courage, the courage to give the feedback is almost as important as the person who's receiving the feedback and is ready to accept it in the way that it was intended. So you need to build a lot of trust in those situations. But I think the starting point is likely that feedback rich culture you create within your team. And so you're providing ongoing feedback, both positive feedback and what we like to say, constructive feedback or feedback to help improve, et cetera, and talking those different things through and then you can see how it can extend to other areas.
But I agree with you, Ari, if that's not happening, then waiting for the annual review and searching through your diary or your drawers because you made notes to remind them of something that happened eight months ago is ridiculous way of doing it. So that's not at all helpful. But the, you know, the annual review conversation as a bit of a kind of bookend to the year can be a helpful conversation.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Mark, what an absolute delight. I appreciate you diving into these complex and important topics with me today. Thank you.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: Thank you, Ari. I enjoyed it. Thank you a lot.
