Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Thank you so much for giving us your time today. Really appreciate it. One question that I really wanted to. Just to start off this conversation was around your background in criminology and sociology. How did you find yourself in it? What inspired you to get started in something like that?
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Well, what inspired me to major in criminology, criminal justice, and sociology? First of all, when I was a grade school student, I love civics, and that delves off into sociology.
And when I went. When I. When I was in the Marine Corps.
They trained you to kill, and they trained. They trained you for law enforcement in their training.
So I decided for a career in criminal justice.
I worked in every area of the criminal justice system.
Law enforcement. I was a police courts, probation officer, parole agent, corrections correctional officer, correctional treatment specialist. I worked in social services. As a social service, career training.
I worked as a drug counselor, mental health counselor, paralegal.
And then I transitioned from that. In 1997, I started being an adjunct criminal justice professor, and I was a dean of a department.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: I'm so curious when, especially when you're going through those initial stages of your career, what were some of the biggest highlights or takeaway as you were going through those different levels?
[00:01:51] Speaker B: What triggered everything was when I worked as a trainer at the Chicago Police Academy. It was the first criminal justice job I had teaching, and I trained police cadets in domestic violence and communication. And then I started being an adjunct professor.
Wherever I can get the experience from. That's how you get your experience teaching, being an adjunct.
And I love what I do. I love seeing the smile on the students face when they learn. They just light up.
And I go out of my way for women in criminal justice, because women, a lot of them have kids.
A lot of them have part time jobs plus kids.
So they have a difficult time matriculating, and I go out of my way for all women in my classes.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: I know you've written your book, coping with stress and building leadership. Can you describe one of your most stressful times in your career in the military? Oh, I can only imagine.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I was in a firefight with the. With the enemy, and my rifle jammed.
The bullets wouldn't come out.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: That's crazy.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: They wouldn't come out, and I can't do nothing about it. All I can do is duck in hat.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
Oh, my gosh. How do you even come back for that? Like, how do you put yourself back after something like that?
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Well, something you have to do. I was trained to do that.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: How do you feel like that's colored just the way you even look at life from your experience being in the military.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Well, before the age of 18, I traveled to the Far east. Vietnam, Okinawa, California. When I got out, I traveled all over the world.
But by the time I was 22, 23, I've been halfway over the world.
I owe that to traveling in the Marine Corps.
I love the Marine Corps. I still love the Marine Corps. I still do things that did in the marine Corps. It was a good thing I had brothers that preceded me. And being in the Marine Corps, it was. There were three of us all together. They went to saw come back, and all three of us made it back.
So I was blessed.
I was trained by some of the most professional people in service and outside of service. I came in contact with people in the CIA, FBI, DEA, US Customs Service, US Marshals Service, Sheriff Department.
Those are the kind of people I interface with in law enforcement.
And I was fortunate because most of them are veterans.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: And they had their own story to tell.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: That's cool. You mentioned earlier that you, that there are things that you still do now after being in the military for so long. What are some of those things that you've kept?
[00:05:27] Speaker B: My eating habits really real fast and my wife always get on me, said, mel, slow down.
Don't eat real fast. I said, I can't help it.
And the way I hold my hand with a cup.
They taught us how to march like that, and I still do that to this day.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: That's so funny.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: In my communication skills, they taught me how to be a good communicator.
And being a leader, a down to earth leader, they taught me the quality qualities of having people follow me.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially in such a, such a high pressure situation like that. How do you be a down to earth leader with anxieties running high, your own anxieties.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: I stand focused. A good example is when I was in that firefight fight. Yeah, the bullets would come out and I said, oh, my God.
But I wasn't hit all the time I was in Vietnam.
I think the closest I ever got became to being killed was when I was in a helicopter. And a helicopter received fire from the ground and it was hit all over. The hydraulic system went out and it, the chopper couldn't gain altitude. So the chopper was a sitting duck for DC gunfire.
And I blacked out for about 30 seconds and I saw angels.
And I promised God, if you get me out of this, I would go to church every Sunday. And I haven't kept that promise.
But the chopper finally made it to the ground.
A hard landing there were nothing on that chopper with officers. They were on their way for r and ruperation. I was on my way to the hospital, but I didn't have, I didn't have any a rifle with me, any firearms with me, no bandolier, no. 45, no. No grenades, no rifle, no nothing.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: Gosh.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: So I would have been messed up if that chopper would have got shot down?
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh, my gosh, I can only imagine. So, I mean, just going back to your point of staying focused and being grounded, how do you do that in a situation like that? That sounds so, like, oh, my gosh, that sounds so crazy.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: They train me in that hand. They train you for different things.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: And the Marine Corps train the hell out of me. They trained, they trained, they trained, train, train, train. Matter of fact, my di told me, he said, you are the best recruit I have ever seen come through camp penalty. I would, I would fight anywhere in the world with you.
Oh, he had been to Vietnam five times, and he said that to me, that meant a lot to me, yet I never would forget him.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: What do you think while you were in the military helped you stand out and get that type of recognition from him?
[00:09:32] Speaker B: My motivation, they motivated me, and I is still in me to this day.
There's nothing I can't do within reason.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Hmm.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: And that's the motivation that I got and the leadership skills that I get.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Do you think motivation is something that you, it's a skill. Is it something you're born with?
[00:09:58] Speaker B: It's something you learn.
It's a learning process.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: How do you, how do you even, how do you begin that learning process of motivation?
[00:10:08] Speaker B: You learn that process from people that led you. So one day you can lead others to follow motivation, and leadership goes hand in hand. Leadership is any, it's the ability to persuade others to follow you through effective influence.
Motivation is a force behind that, that pushes you and compel you to do things.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Can you give an example or a time in your life where it was really difficult to lead people?
[00:10:43] Speaker B: PTSD and stress, because with PTSD, you have stress, you have depression, you have paranoia.
Sometimes you might get schizoid.
I've lived through all that. My therapy started in 1980 at the VA hospital.
I left the department of justice because of stress. They offered me disability.
They said, mel, let us give you disability for all the suffering you've done. I said, hell no, I don't want no disability. Nothing's wrong with me. I denied it. I denied it, and to this day, I regret it.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
Going back to your book about coping with stress and building that leadership. I mean, how are you able to do that?
[00:11:43] Speaker B: As long as I can control my hands or my feet, I won't jump off a bridge or do anything harmful to myself or others. I've never been psychotic, but I have been depressed, paranoia, PTSD, and stressed and stressed out. And when you stressed out, you can't think. You need someone to think for you, and I have to do that even today. My stress condition, I learned how to cope with it and how to turn it around when, during the most difficult times, acting on you that causes you discomfort or strain. There's a lot of definitions to stress, but discomfort and strain mentally, how are.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: You able to find that definition for yourself and, like, flip the stress to be something bright when you're in such a stressful situation?
[00:12:49] Speaker B: I learned how to cope. That's why my book is called coping with stress and building leadership. One man's journey. I went through a journey from the Marine Corps all the way up to 2011 and beyond. I've had a PTSD condition.
I've had depression, paranoia. I had open heart surgery.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: Because I had aortic stenosis, I came in contact with Agent Orange in Vietnam, and that messed up my organs.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: So they gave me disability for that.
And I thank God for the Marine Corps today.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: When I was a senior citizen.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: See, I mean, things happen for a reason.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: I didn't take the disability in Department of Justice, but I had to take this disability.
Yes. Yes. And the most important thing about stress and PTSD.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Mm hmm.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: It's denial.
Denial, denial, denial. If you're in denial, you can't be cured or you can't cope with it because you're in denial. You know, admit you had a problem.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Throughout your career, what have you defined for yourself as success when it comes to stress, when it comes to leading motivation? Like, how do you define success for yourself?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Well, how do I cope? I cope every day by getting up in the morning, putting my trousers on, put my towel on, my shirt on, because I'm professional, and I go to psychiatrist. The VA has the psychiatrist, and they had me on a strong regimen of medication.
Now it's not strong enough to interfere with my everyday work, work life.
It's just enough to keep me an even keel.
It took them years to find that in my medication.
At first, I wouldn't have the drugs that they had. They have now. There's a lot of drugs out there that can make things very comfortable for you.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: You want to be comfortable because that's where discomfort and strain come.
You don't have to suffer with PTSD any longer like I did when I first was diagnosed with it in 1980. They used to have a medication called Thorazine.
Thorazine.
They would say, you doing a Thursday shuffle?
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Oh, man.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: You know, that was a catch all medication for everything. The VA would give you Thursday, and it would knock you out. They had no way of adjusting it. I suffered. I went to the high school, took all kind of shots. I've got marks in my arm from now with the shots I took.
Did that, see what was wrong with me, and it was hell, it was rough, but they gave me 100% disability, and they paid out. They. I was. I was going for my PhD when I was homeless.
They paid out my.
My loans, my student loans.
The VA department education is because, by law, if you're 100% disabled, they'll pay for all your school loans. They'll wipe it out. They wiped out over $200,000, the loans that I had made, because I was living off the loans, plus one to college.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: So I'm.
I thank God for America. God bless America. Thank God for all of them.
They help me.
Yeah, God bless America.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: You just briefly mentioned that you were, for a time, homeless. I've always. I. Personally, I. Because I have relatives who are in the military right now, and so I. I mean, I just. It baffles me that someone could give so much of themselves, sacrifice so much of themselves, and then come back home and be homeless.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: I pray.
I pray every day. I don't go to church, but I pray.
I have a Bible on my desk at work. I have a bible here at home.
My father. My father was living. He was a minister.
I said, dad, am I job now? Job in the Bible. Lost everything.
His cattle.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: Yeah, his.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: His son. Everything.
I lost everything. And my father told me, he said, son, you aren't job.
Don't worry. Everything will be okay.
And that. That comfort, that comforted me, and he was right. Sometimes it's a waiting game.
It's your time when. It's your time.
When I got open heart surgery, that made me wake up to a lot of things that I was taking for granted.
Not only did the Marine Corps in Vietnam give me ptsd, but they gave me aortic stenosis, a heartening of the arteries. They had to take my artery out and put a pig valve.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: In its place. I'm living with a pig valve in my heart, attached to my heart.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: So through throughout your career, has there, because you mentioned earlier, when you were talking about working with the Department of Justice and all these other veterans that you've been able to interact with, hearing their stories. Has there been a story that stuck with you even to today?
Yeah.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: The story that I have to tell is through actual combat. When I was in DNM, I didn't see that much combat. I think I was in maybe three or four or firefights.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Wow. That's all besides that helicopter.
But I seen enough to shock the conscience that they met about people from the, from the combat zone to the hospital.
I'll never forget this. It was, one guy said I was red. When I was in Vietnam. I turned red, my skin peeled. That's how hot it was.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: And the guy called me Red. He said, red, can you tell me if my dick is still attached to me?
He was in so much pain.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: And I'll never forget that. I'll never forget the time when I was at the hospital and they met about this guy in, with a grenade in his head.
They had to kill him.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Oh my goodness.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Because they didn't, they didn't know how many revolutions it went. After so many revolutions it explode.
They had to kill him.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I, and I never forget that, that, oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing. First off, I, I really appreciate it. I know it's been you, but I should have asked that for, I apologize. Thank you.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: No, that's what I learned to do was talk about it. That's when you're not in denial.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Time you talk to somebody and they don't want to talk about it, it's you. They're in denial.
They're in denial. I used to be a drug counselor and twelve steps and all that stuff is important.
All that's important.
So I learned from teaching how to cope myself.
It's therapy.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: I turned it into something positive.
And I've helped so many people.
I have helped a lot of people. A lot of people helped me.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: A lot of people took advantage of me too.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: Oh, why?
[00:22:10] Speaker B: They took advantage of me politically. When I, when I was on a, when I was homeless, I volunteered for both parties and both parties helped me, but both parties didn't help me. It was a two way split. Because the republican party are for the wealth and the riches.
Democratic party are for working class, everyday citizens and they help them as much as possible.
But the Republicans got me a job and my ex wife a job.
The Democrats never did that.
I even had a chance to get a management job with the republican party. But I turned it down. Like a fool. I was a blame fool. I turned it.
The lady said, they sent you here to meet to get you to get your job. They said you had a choice to be an administrator or to be a case worker. Please don't. Don't be an administrator because I got the job for somebody else.
That's how cutthroat it was.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: So that's patronage.
I was homeless and I was volunteering, and they locked me out. They changed a lot to the office, though.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: I had to stay overnight at a church.
The minister said, I heard you're a Republican. You're not Democrat. I'm Democrat. You can only stay here one night. One night.
That's what he told me. That was a minister.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: That was a minister.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: That was a man of the clock.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
I don't love that at all.
But, I mean. Oh, gosh.
Thank you for sharing. That's just so interesting to me how you would never think that. You would never think that.
But going back to what you were saying about teaching and all the people that you've been able to help and how that's helped you and how they've helped you, can you. Do you, what is one student that has left an impact on you?
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Well, the students I have now, and the freshmen.
Freshmen need extra time to be taken up by you.
I have a book coming out about the freshman year of college for freshmen. That's coming out. It'll be out in October.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: The next book I write won't be for another two years on mental health and the college student, because I got another book I'm writing after this book, so.
But freshmen inspire me because I used to be a freshman, and I always said if I ever go to college and graduate and get a PhD, I would help every freshman or every student that I could, and I'm doing it.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah. What is it about the freshman experience that inspires you?
[00:25:56] Speaker B: They. They walk around the campus not knowing anything.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: And they need some direction, and I've been able to do that. Let me give you a good example. Tuesday and Thursday are my teaching days. I work Tuesday and Thursday 12 hours a day to 13 hours a day.
Each day, 13 hours a day. My schedule booked for Tuesday outside of the campus. But I'm not gonna cancel my class with the freshmen. I'm gonna go in at 08:00 in the morning or 07:00 in the morning, be ready for them at 08:00 in the morning, give them their tests, because if you say, you. If you say something, you don't do it. They fall behind.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: And you don't want to fall behind because they might not catch up.
So I'm going to go in, get that test and grade it Wednesday.
Another thing, they like to test back as soon as possible. Yeah, I'm doing that. I have it ready within hours.
I've got 32 students in that lecture hall.
32 students. Unfortunately, due to a technical issue, we.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: Lost the rest of the recording with doctor Melvin Mahone. We are grateful to doctor Mahone for opening his heart and sharing his journey.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: And we will definitely have him back again.
