Cheryl Mason | Aug 28, 2024

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. We have a lot of items in common that we're both excited about, but before we get to that, bring us up to speed on who you are and what you're doing nowadays. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Oh, well, thank you for having me on the show, and that's a big one to start off with. So, who I am. Well, at my core, I'm a little girl from Appalachia, from the foothills of Appalachia in southern Ohio. That's where I started, and I'm pretty ground to my roots still. Then I became a military spouse. I married a young man in the air force, and he took me all over the United States and the world. And along the way, on my journeys, I learned some things, and probably the top of that list, in addition to being adaptable and flexible, I learned the importance and impact of people and relationships with people in your life and on your life. And so I brought that forward into leading. And so, after bopping around the United States and Germany, we came back to the United States. I ended up back at the Department of Veterans affairs, where I served veterans, and I started climbing the ladder, and I became the first woman and military spouse chairman of the board of veterans appeals at the Department of Veterans affairs. That. That is a presidentially appointed, Senate confirmed position. I held that position for five years in which the board was quite successful because I focused on people and supporting the people of the organization. And then it was time to retire, so I did, and I retired and moved down to North Carolina. And a little bit warmer, but still very comfortable and close to what I'm used to in the rural areas. And I wrote a book, and now I'm a speaker. I do motivational, inspirational speaking, keynote speaking, and I also do some guest articles on leadership, employee engagement, culture, management, things like that. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Tell us a little bit about the book. First of all, we're gonna. I want to put a little plug in there, and we'll come back to it later. What's the book called? [00:02:13] Speaker B: Sure. The book is dare to relate. It's never far from me. Here. It is dare to relate, leading with a fierce heart. And you'll notice that it has an airplane on the front of it with people on top of that. Now, if you look closely, you'll see a heart on the vertical stabilizer of the plane in the back here, and then underneath the wing that you can see, you'll see a star. And that's a nod to the air force as an air force spouse. But the other piece about the book is in leadership and business, they often say you're building the plane while you're flying it. So this is a little bit of a play on that. So the book is really about where I came from in the foothills of Appalachia, my experiences as a multiple suicide loss survivor before the age of 18, losing my father and my brother, what that world was like for me, what I learned from engagement, or lack of engagement with people, depending on how they treated us. And then, you know, transferring into the military spouse world, similar situations of the. Again, the importance and impact of people. And that led me to lead differently than a lot of my colleagues, which was people first. I led by supporting, connecting, getting to know the people who worked for me, whether it was ten or over 1000. And that's really what the book is about. The keys to learning how, learning to find out who you are as a leader, how to develop yourself as a leader. Everybody has different gifts and talents, and you use those as you step into your leadership role. And you don't have to do it the same as everyone else. You can lead from your position, but first and foremost, your people have to be first. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Thank you. With your permission, I would like to take you back to a painful part of your life because I'm guessing that it was a source of tremendous insight for you. And I might be wrong here, but you lost multiple people in your life. Take us back to that. What happened? How did it make you feel? [00:04:41] Speaker B: So my father was a world war Two Navy veteran, and I came along later in life. My parents had been married several years. My brother was 16 when I was born, and my father had suffered from mental health challenges since service. And, you know, it varied. Some days were good, some days were not. And he basically was a paranoid schizophrenic. It was an adult onset situation that was brought on by the stress of serving in the navy during World War two in the Pacific. And so when I was four years old, he died by suicide. And so overnight, I lost my father and my mother became the single, you know, single parent as well as the sole. Sole provider for the family. My brother was actually at boot camp when my father passed, and he was already married by that time and had his first child on the way. But in Appalachia, people struggle with things they don't understand. They tend to avoid them, and they tend to avoid the people connected with them. So what that meant was that people who my mother and father had known their whole lives, including some family members, not all turned their back on us, excluded us because they didn't understand. And it was a group of people, primarily the veteran community and families, who had served alongside, who came alongside and supported us. And my mom was a government teacher. She wouldn't allow me to or herself to be made invisible. And so she pushed me out into people in the world, and, you know, things were the way they were. I learned how to navigate that, and I also learned how to protect myself and hide when I needed to. I, you know, sometimes you may see a mask or a cape in my speaking. I talk about that with respect to leaders, but I also talk about that from my childhood, because people can hide and become invisible in any position. It depends on how you want to. [00:07:04] Speaker A: I want to dig into this a little bit. I feel bad about transition to that next stage. Really, what I want to say is, you know, you went through an incredibly difficult time, and you didn't share that there was yet more that, more that hit you after that. But this was an incredibly difficult time that you pulled yourself through and emerged. So I just want to first give you a virtual hug and send a little bit of love. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:07:37] Speaker A: And then my question is, what does that mean? What does that mean, hidden or invisible? [00:07:47] Speaker B: So what happens is life presents obstacles, right? It presents us with challenges. And when you're presented with those obstacles or challenges, you have options. You can choose to tackle them and use them, as I learned based on my mother's guidance. And I pushing to use them as stepping stones, as catalysts to push me forward, to learn from them, to grow, to figure out why they, you know, how I could use them to make me stronger and better and help others, or you can allow them to put you in a corner and hide you and make you invisible. And some people choose to put on a mask, hide them their true selves, or they put on a cloak and literally hide in the corner and they don't come out. And so those are very dangerous situations, both of them, because they're not good for you. [00:08:45] Speaker A: What does that look like? What happens when we. Is it fair to say that it's a form of denial? Or what happens when you and you use the word choose? What happens when you choose to go down that path? What does it look like? [00:09:00] Speaker B: Well, as people, it means that you're choosing to stay in the background. You're choosing not to engage with people. You're choosing to watch the world go by rather than be an active part of it. And, you know, there's loneliness, there's depression, there's things that can occur, and, you know, that's not who we as a people, as human beings, were created to be. And we see this in leaders, too. That's part of the reason for the book, because sometimes leaders have imposter syndrome, where they develop this invisibility, because they're not confident in themselves or they don't want to put themselves out there. And that's the dangerous territory, because invisibility, whether it's in a family or whether it's in an organization, is contagious, and it can spread throughout the organization and hurt and the family and hurt everyone. And that's a little bit of what happened with us when my brother died at 34, also by suicide, and I was two weeks away from starting college, and he had also begun to suffer from some mental challenges, and he didn't feel like he had anywhere to go, even though we had already been through this once. Right. And so what that taught us was the importance of communication and the importance of putting ourselves and our family first and foremost. And that's what I took forward. But that invisibility, when you feel like it's. You're, you know, you don't matter, no one cares about you. You're not engaged. That that is very dangerous as a person and as in an organization, you. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Know, as you tell that story, I remember so many times where we had an issue with, you know, one of the team, and my question is, did we ask the question, how are you doing? Did we take the moment to consider that what we see is just a fraction of the picture and that there is a person behind who has a life, who has a family, who has things that we don't know about that are happening to them, and can we support them in any way? That's not common. That's not something I saw happening around me. And when I was in a difficult spot, my manager took the time to say, hey, Ari, how are you doing? And that changed my life. That one experience of a manager, a leader, doing that, for me just changed my life. It changed my leadership style. So I, you know, I listen to what you're saying, and I know firsthand that this is a real issue. How do. What do you do? What do you do as the person that is experiencing this hardship? What do you do as the people around who just don't know? What are the best practices? And let's start from the person who's going through a hardship. What are the biggest behaviors or tricks or tactics or beliefs that we need to employ in order to get us through? [00:12:15] Speaker B: Well, you know, like I said, everybody comes with a different perspective and background, right? I mean, mine could have been very different, but for my mother, I mean, I literally stand on her shoulders. The reason I'm here and where I am is because of her. But I think that when you. And what she taught me was that I mattered, is that I mattered as a person. And you have to matter to you first. And so that's the first thing is, yes, you're going through a difficult issue or a problem, and it seems bigger than you think. But first and foremost, check in with how you're doing, and then figure out where you can go for help and reach out and talk to people. The biggest thing that people don't do is we don't talk to each other. We don't, like you said, your leader asked you, how are you really doing? Those are the questions that we have to ask each other, and you have to ask your employees that question, and you have to know something about them to ask that question, you have to know that something's nothing. You know, they're not their usual selves. They're not, you know, something's not right. And so kind of sometimes we hide things because we don't want to bother anybody, and I think it's worse when we do that. So if you're having a bad day, you know, people have bad days, right? Say, you know, it's. It's a crazy day and I need some me time, or I need to walk away for a little bit and kind of reset and recalibrate. You know, one of the things I was a huge champion for as a chief executive, which was odd, was I believed in mental health days. You know, you have sick time. When you're sick, you have leave. But sometimes, you know, I don't care what you use it for. If you need a mental health day, take the mental health day and do. Spend time with your family. Go do something you need to do for you. But the other side of that is let somebody know that you're struggling. So that's the first piece. [00:14:27] Speaker A: There's a conflict between how we want to appear to our environment. It's true as more junior roles, it's true as senior executives, we want to immute confidence success, because that's going to empower the people around us. They're like, oh, we're doing well. I don't have to worry because, you know, he or she is a rock. My rock, right? That's sometimes used in interpersonal relationships. But on the other hand, we want to be real human beings. That real shit is going in their life. And how do we balance that? Because it's not a simple thing. Like, we might think that, oh, I need to share everything that's, you know, or we might think, no, I need to be super resilient. How do you achieve that balance? [00:15:21] Speaker B: You know, that's, you know, that's a question for everyone. How do you figure out, I mean, you don't want to over share, but at the same time, you want people to know. For me, as a leader, I wanted the people who worked for me to know first and foremost that I was a human being, that I was a person that cared about them. And so I can't do that if they don't know anything about me and I don't share with them. So you have to have a little bit of vulnerability. How much vulnerability you put out there is really up to what your situation is. Because of my background and my experience, you know, I came to be very open to talk about the impact of suicide in my life. And I've had, in addition to my family members, I've lost people in the workplace, I've lost people in the community. And so I am open and vulnerable and talk about that because I think it's important to do that. But at the same time, you can only be as vulnerable as you are comfortable being. Right. And so that's where the balance comes in. And figuring out how do you strike that balance between sharing that you're struggling or sharing that you're vulnerable and not over sharing and helping beyond where you can. You know, I can share that I'm vulnerable. I can share that I have this history, but I only have a bachelor's degree in psychology and a law degree. I can't treat anyone. I can't counsel anyone. That's where you have to make sure you have the resources and the support to help people if they need it and ensure that you're supporting them to go to those places. I think that's the key, is finding. Finding your resources that can support you but also help you support others. [00:17:12] Speaker A: We spoke to a veteran. We actually speak to a lot of veterans, coincidentally. But one of the veterans was saying, first and foremost, it's getting over denial, because if you're not going to acknowledge what you're feeling, you're not going to take a moment to be in that moment, in that feeling, it's almost impossible to start that journey, to take that next step and to move from what some people might call victimism, this lack of power, lack of control, to, no, this is not a thing that happened to me. This is a thing that happened for me. I'm taking control back. I'm taking control of my destiny to overcome and succeed, and that's an incredibly hard thing to do. What are the tricks or tips or advice that you would give to somebody who needs to take that next step? [00:18:20] Speaker B: So, you know, I worked at the Department of Veterans affairs for over 25 years. I was a judge who held hearings with many, many veterans, thousands, probably. And also as the chairman, I interacted with quite a few veterans, as well as veteran service organizations and family members, and I still do. I mean, I was at a veteran meeting last night as part of what I do in my free time. But I think the biggest thing, again, has to do with whether it's a veteran, which we often see, or even a family member who's struggling with dealing with those challenges is, you know, not denying them. Is it, as you said, that the denial of them, you know, VA sees or tries to see many veterans, and many veterans that I know will say, well, I don't need, I don't need the treatment from VA. Somebody else needs it more. [00:19:22] Speaker A: That's incredibly common. By the way, I'm sure you know this already, but to bring our audience with us on this journey, veterans first and foremost, every single time I have this conversation, they want to make sure that somebody else who's been in their journey is taken care of first, no matter how objective their situation is. [00:19:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:44] Speaker A: That is incredibly. I mean, I feel goosebumps just by saying that and remembering all these stories and all these people and saying, yes, but you matter, too. You also matter. [00:19:56] Speaker B: And that's where I start with them. I'm like, okay, well, you know, first of all, the Department of Veterans affairs is a very large organization with a very big budget, and you earned the benefits and services that you are entitled to. And so you are basically living in denial. It's a form of denial. By saying, somebody else deserves it more, you earned it. You deserve it, period. Bottom line. And, you know, and so that's, you know, and so oftentimes I start there by saying, you're entitled to these benefits and services based on whatever happened to you. You need to explore them and figure that out, because by not doing so, you're denying yourself that opportunity to figure some things out for you. But second of all, you're also impacting your family because many times, veterans benefits and services can support and help the family not only in their world, like education, benefits, and other things, but also help the family care for the veteran. Right. And so when I tell them that and explain it, many times, I end up talking to the veteran's spouse and I'll say, you know, they're leaving money on the table. That usually gets their attention. But, you know, it's a form of denial because they don't want to open that pandora's box, right? Because it's hard. It's stuff that they have on a box. But here's what happens, and this is what I tell them. Okay, so you're 40 something now. What happens in ten years? What happens in 20 years? That box is going to open. Right. And it's better that you set up what you need now and work through it and deal with it while you are, you know, in situations where you can deal with it rather than wait till later. And that's something I learned because I saw not only from my father's experience as a world war two veteran, but when I first started working at the VA as a young attorney, a lot of our cases were world war two veterans who had waited a very long time to file and were struggling with a lot of their issues because they had retired. And so now they had time to think. [00:22:07] Speaker A: And it's such an important topic. My biggest takeaway is that really, you need to listen and you need to look and you need to see. You can't just hear. It's not enough. And if each of us as. You don't have to be a leader, right, you can be a friend, a colleague who is seeing a friend sitting next to them in the office, or I on a Zoom call, and all you need to do is ask more than once, how are you doing? But the second one is, no, really, how are you doing? And countless times when I've asked that the second or third time, you get a different answer. Because we have a culture in the United States where that's, how are you doing? Oh, I'm great. How are you? That's the social interaction we go through. But if you really care, you'll ask that second or third time. [00:23:07] Speaker B: That's the first one is the mask that we put on. [00:23:10] Speaker A: That's right. [00:23:10] Speaker B: That we need to take off. [00:23:12] Speaker A: That's right. I want to circle back to your book. You're talking about leading with a fierce heart. What does that mean? [00:23:22] Speaker B: Well, you know, when you're a leader, you again. I've worked for several leaders. I've worked alongside of several leaders. And what I found is most leaders are afraid to show their true selves and to put themselves into their work because they're afraid that it will cost them more. It will take more time. It will just be harder. And, you know, that they will get too caught up. And the other side of that is that they're afraid that then they can't handle certain things because leading is not a walk in the park. It's hard, right. But, you know, I think my way of approaching it was like I led with my heart. I led because that's who I am, and that's who I, you know, came to be. And so for me, it wasn't. It was. It would be harder to try to hide the heart and not be present in who I am and support and champion my people. So one of the stories I tell, I tell in the book, I tell when I speak. I started walking around shortly after I stepped into the role as chairman, started walking around the space. This was prior to the pandemic. And so people were like, you know, trying to figure out what was going on, right? Because here I was on the floor walking around, and, you know, I had a couple of employees, more than. More than a few, because we had a union relationship with our. With our workforce, who said, you know, you're interfering. You're disrupting our work. You're checking on us. And I said, I'm. I'm not checking on you. I'm not checking to see if you're doing your work. I'm here so that I can check in with you to see how you're doing, so that you can talk to me about your issues and concerns, because I know from years of experience that you're not going to come up and knock on my door regardless of whether, you know, I could sit in the hallway and you still wouldn't come. Right. So I'm coming to you. Right. And it took them a minute because they weren't used to that. They were weird. Yeah. They were used to the leader that stayed in the ivory tower that you didn't see that was, you know, moving around with an entourage of people. And here I was just wandering on the floor. I mean, oftentimes, my key staff would come to work in the office and go, where is she? And, you know, they text me on the phone. I'm like, I'm on floor two. I'm on floor three. I'll be back in an hour. Right. But the thing was, I connected. I learned about the people, and I learned about the employees as people with their lives beyond work. I mean, I saw Pez dispenser collections. I saw artwork. I saw, you know, people traveled. I saw family pictures. Pet pictures, you know? And the thing was, then we had something to talk about that wasn't work, right? And so we formed a relationship. And so then when, you know, there were concerns and issues, because we had that relationship, then I was going to listen. And so what happened is, very early in that career, in that walk around, a young man approached me, and he just happened to be in mitzvah grant engineer as well as a lawyer. And he had a suggestion about how we utilize our technology better. That made a huge difference to the organization in year one, not only to the people, but to our customers. Right, to the employees. And so that's the kind of thing. But when you lead with your heart first and you put yourself out there with saying, okay, I'm here, you know, you're not. It's not leading with your heart on your sleeve, right? But it's showing that you care. And that's the fierce heart, showing that you care and championing your people. What I would often tell my employees is, if you don't tell me, I can't fix it. [00:27:24] Speaker A: I'll never forget this story where an employee came up to me and told me that they're leaving, and this was more than 20 years ago. And he said, you know, I'm leaving. I've had enough. I'm fed up, you know, and I was in shock because at that time, I was not a very good leader, and I was incredibly curious, and I wanted to learn the whole story. And he was vulnerable enough to give me the whole story, although that's not something people do nowadays. You want to a lot of people, you don't want to kind of muddy the relationship as you're leaving. You make up an excuse on why you're leaving. So he was vulnerable enough to share with me, and he told me, oh, I'm going to, you know, this. And this amount of time ago, he understood that I was going to be fired. And I was like, no, that's completely wrong. And then what went on to unfold is that because he thought he was going to get fired, fired. He had changes in behavior, which then we were like, oh, why are these changes in behavior? Then he saw our changes in behavior. Then his behavior even changed more. There was this pygmalion effect, this self fulfilling prophecy that happened, which had no reality route at all. Nobody was unhappy with that employee. But then after going through this and really reflecting and thinking, I was like, I fucked up. If I had listened and noticed the signs, if I had gone into her and said, hey, how are you? Doing. I could have nipped that in the butt. And instead of that, it exploded in his face. Exploding in our face. And things that happened which he had done, which were unreversible because we were not listening. So I listened to you share this, and I'm like, this has happened to me. This has happened to other leaders. This is so incredibly important. It's not about touchy feely, you know, let's be friends with our employees. This is real. This is tangible. This has incredible effects to the business. Now, you portrayed an example of how things can go incredibly well, but all of us have the stories of how they can go incredibly wrong. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:46] Speaker A: You talked about how you walk around and how you had to overcome the suspicion or objections to that process. That's one tactic. What are other tactics? What other tools can we employ to become better leaders when it comes to really noticing and listening and seeing our team? [00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think you hit on one of them very early on. Listening. And listening means being present, not thinking about what you're going to say next, not thinking about whatever else is going on. Listening to where that person is and what that person is saying, saying to you and how that is affecting the person and how it's affecting you. So, you know, you can listen through a virtual call. Right. During the pandemic, we did a lot of that. Right. And so you. That's, that's listening. The, you know, whether you walk around or whether you carve out time, it's really scheduling, carving out time to engage and invest in your people. Right. And that can be office hours. It can be coffees, it can be town halls. I mean, it can simply be like, one of the things I did when, when we were in the office was, you know, we had a little smoothie place. Sandwich smoothie place. Well, I knew what time everybody went to lunch, so I went to lunch. Right. And so they were like, oh, you know, I can talk to you down here. Right. So another thing is, it's that visibility, it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be walking around all the time. It doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be structured. It can just be that you're visible and approachable. You send the signals that you're available to your employees. But the other thing is when you listen and you hear suggestions or ideas, then implement what you can. Take their ideas or ask them for solutions. Most of employees will have ideas, and many of them have solutions, too. Or at least try it. Try it and see if it works. I mean, look, leadership, that's one of the things leaders get in trouble with, right? They want to know all the answers. They're risk averse. We don't want to get into trouble anywhere. Well, you know, how do you learn? How can you, how can you show your people you're listening and paying attention and investing in them if you're not trying those things? So that was a, you know, when I became the chairman, one of the things, I took a page out of Miss Frizzle from the magic school bus that my kids used to watch. We're going to get messy, make mistakes, and we're going to learn things. And if they don't work, we're going to try again. And that's exactly what we did. Right. So I think having that attitude of approachability, of listening and then being, implementing their suggestions and ideas, because then it brings them into the organization and then they have a stake, they have a peak. [00:32:47] Speaker A: I love that structure that you've outlaid. Right. You have to be available. You have to be accessible. You have to have the structures to allow engagement because if you're in your ivory tower, that's not going to happen. But I love the next part, which is about, well, now I'm in that conversation. What do I do? One of the things you alluded, well, straight out said is it's not a, oh, thank you for your feedback. We'll see what we can do. Nothing happens. It's a, well, what can we do about this? How is this affecting us? What kind of ideas do we have? How could we solve this? That's such a wonderful approach because I think a lot of people are, they know they can be accessible, but they're kind of scared about what might happen next. What are they opening themselves to? Like, what trouble am I getting myself into? But in the trouble also lies the opportunity, is what I would argue. So we've had the conversation, we've learned something new. We truly listened, and we asked ourselves follow up questions. What do we do next? Do we just implement every suggestion? If it's a suggestion that we just can't implement, how do we have that follow up question, that follow up discussion, how do we handle the extremes of, yes, that's great. We did it. We made a million dollars. But then there's the also, well, this doesn't make sense. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Well, I think part of that goes to the solution part. So when suggestions and ideas are brought forward, one of the things I got very curious. So I would say, okay, well, how do we implement that that makes sense? For us and for our customers. How's that play out? Let's think about the downstream issues. Let's think about what Congress is going to think. Let's think about whether we have the budget for that. Let's think, you know, how do we tackle those ideas? Because in that way, you're not only showing them things they might need to think about as future leaders, but you're always also letting them realize that there's probably more impact than they realize. [00:34:59] Speaker A: I want to stop you there. That was beautiful. You're showing them what are the things to think about as future leaders. Here's my argument. You are making future leaders by this process. You're empowering, you're promoting your people. You're giving them a path not only to solve the thing that's on their mind right now, but you're promoting them into something more. And I think that, I didn't want to let you get away with saying that and not digging into it because it's incredibly important. Right. So you're investing by listening, by going through this process, even by dealing, because we're afraid. We're like, oh, like, this is, I don't want to do this. We shouldn't do this. Like, oh, how do I deliver the bad news? I think what a lot of people might be like, oh, this is not going to work for ABCD, but you're presenting a completely different strategy and you're saying, well, let's, first of all, myself, I'm going to invest. I'm going to think about the risk. I'm going to think about some solutions, but I'm also going to collaborate with the employee, individual computer managers, sometimes even leaders. I'm going to say, how do we solve this? What are your ideas? And in that you're making them a better leader, which is absolutely beautiful. So I just wanted to stop and appreciate you and what you said there for a moment. [00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the investment. That's often what people would not understand is, oh, well, we'll listen to those ideas and we'll talk about them somewhere else. No, let's talk about them right here with the people that have them. And let's help them think about all the different pieces, parts, because how do we develop them into our future leaders? Because we're going to need them in the future if we go make the decision that they gave us an idea for. Like the story I told about the young man with the technology issue, you know, when he presented the issue, of course I thought it was great, but I said, okay, how do we do this? What do you see as impact as problems? Areas of issues that are going to be problems for your coworkers. And he's like, oh, buy in. And I said, okay. And I said, and what else? And he said, training. And I said, okay, so what's the plan? [00:37:11] Speaker A: He had one amazing. If you don't ask the question, you're not going to know. Right. Like, all you need to do is ask the question. [00:37:20] Speaker B: And that's what leaders sometimes miss, is they think they have to know all the answers. They think they need to figure it all out. And what effective leaders can find, if they're listening and they're investing, is the employees will bring solutions and suggestions, and then you work on it together. So it's not just you. It's not just your shoulders. [00:37:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:42] Speaker B: You're still responsible because you're the leader. Buck stops here, but you're not doing it by yourself. They know that your employees, your employees are your most valuable resource and your most important asset. Use them. [00:37:56] Speaker A: I recall, you know, the. I think it was Steve Jobs, but I don't want to miss, you know, miscredit. But I think it was like, I think he said, you know, you don't find the best people and then tell them what to do. You get the best people so they can tell you what to do. [00:38:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:38:14] Speaker A: Right. And if you're not gonna listen, you're not gonna get there. I think that's absolutely wonderful. I think that's. I think people kind of know this, but the path and the tactics and the understanding that going through something that looks like you definitely don't want to do it, you don't want to go and say to employee, no, we shouldn't do that. Actually, there's an opportunity in that challenge, which if you embrace it, then you can have incredible and remarkable results. So I really appreciate. I think that's wonderful. We, believe it or not, this has been so much fun. We're already almost at time. So I want to wrap up with the question we always ask, which is if you had to go back and tell 23 year old Cheryl, give her some advice, or, you know, give your 23 year old daughter or son some advice based on the things that you've really learned, what would that one piece of advice be? [00:39:22] Speaker B: Oh, that's a hard one, because I have two sons, and sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't. [00:39:28] Speaker A: I immediately feel your pain. I have three kids, but they're both. [00:39:32] Speaker B: You know, they're both, both adults now, so it's good. They're coming along. I think probably what I've told both of them, and it does resonate with them, is they are who they are developing into who they are supposed to be. So take the mistakes, take what they believe are failures, take the successes and learn from all of them, because that's going to make them wiser. [00:40:04] Speaker A: You are on your journey. Embrace it. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Yep. [00:40:07] Speaker A: I love that. Cheryl, thank you so much. This was absolutely wonderful. I deeply appreciate you and the time that you've taken with us today. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Well, thank you for your time. And thank you very much for having me on the show. I very much enjoyed it. Thank you.